Why did it Take so Long for Newfoundland to Join Canada?
Scape @ Fri Jul 02, 2021 10:37 pm
JaredMilne @ Fri Jul 02, 2021 11:29 pm
Scape Scape:
Wow, there were a few interesting bits I never knew about, such as Newfoundland's offering to join Canada but Canada turning them down.
Newfoundland did in fact have representatives at the Confederation conferences in the 1860s, but for each colony to join and become a province its colonial legislature had to approve it. Canada West (now Ontario), Canada East (now Quebec) and New Brunswick all signed off on it, as did Nova Scotia through some slippery legislative maneuvering by then-Premier Charles Tupper.
Prince Edward Island (which also sent representatives to the Confederation talks) and Newfoundland both debated the idea of joining Confederation, but they rejected it. From everything I've seen, Newfoundlanders have always cherished their independence, and they've been just as inclined to pick fights with Ottawa as Albertans or Quebecois when they feel they're not getting treated fairly. That was why they rejected Confederation in the 1860s, and why they only joined Confederation after World War II primarily for economic reasons. Even when they did, the results were very close.
I've read a few pieces about Newfoundland's perspective on joining Canada, from Rex Murphy articles to Royal Commission reports. The image they present is one of Newfoundlanders not regretting joining Confederation, and appreciating the benefits of union with the rest of Canada, but they do wish the joining process had been done differently and have long memories of things like the cod fishery collapse and the fights with Ottawa over the Atlantic Accords. One of the reasons Danny Williams was so popular was because he boosted Newfoundland's pride by actually making it into a 'have' province under equalization. There's apparently a statue of the "Fighting Newfoundlander" outside the provincial legislature which one former premier said represented the scrappy pride of the province's people.
As an Albertan, I can see a lot of parallels between us and them, even though we're almost at opposite ends of the country.
CDN_PATRIOT @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 5:07 am
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Newfoundland did in fact have representatives at the Confederation conferences in the 1860s, but for each colony to join and become a province its colonial legislature had to approve it. Canada West (now Ontario), Canada East (now Quebec) and New Brunswick all signed off on it, as did Nova Scotia through some slippery legislative maneuvering by then-Premier Charles Tupper.
FYI, Ontario was called Upper Canada, and Quebec was called Lower Canada.
-J.
JaredMilne @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 10:30 am
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Newfoundland did in fact have representatives at the Confederation conferences in the 1860s, but for each colony to join and become a province its colonial legislature had to approve it. Canada West (now Ontario), Canada East (now Quebec) and New Brunswick all signed off on it, as did Nova Scotia through some slippery legislative maneuvering by then-Premier Charles Tupper.
FYI, Ontario was called Upper Canada, and Quebec was called Lower Canada.
-J.
Yes, until the Act of Union, which the British passed in 1840, merged the two colonies into the Province of Canada. Upper Canada was then renamed Canada West and Lower Canada was renamed Canada East.
raydan @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:23 pm
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Newfoundland did in fact have representatives at the Confederation conferences in the 1860s, but for each colony to join and become a province its colonial legislature had to approve it. Canada West (now Ontario), Canada East (now Quebec) and New Brunswick all signed off on it, as did Nova Scotia through some slippery legislative maneuvering by then-Premier Charles Tupper.
FYI, Ontario was called Upper Canada, and Quebec was called Lower Canada.
-J.
Word of advice, never argue History with JaredMilne.
Scape @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 12:46 pm
Sunnyways @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 1:06 pm
1. It wasn’t inevitable for NL to join Canada - Oz and NZ became separate countries. The question seems to assume it had to happen. However, given the dire state of finances in both St. John’s and London after WWII, it was definitely the right choice to make at the time.
2. NL wasn’t anything like completely Protestant in the 19’th century. Catholics were a substantial minority in the province and, I think, a majority in the city of St. John’s. The influence of religion seems to be misunderstood here as well. By 1948, confederation with Canada was much more popular among Protestants, one reason being the fear among the Irish Catholic clergy of domination by their French brethren.
3. Dactylic pronunciation of the island’s name is acceptable - some locals say NEWfoundland - and is infinitely preferable to NewFOUNDland, but the commonest pronunciation is anapestic, like ‘understand’ - NoofunLAND and LabraDOR
raydan @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 2:17 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
1. It wasn’t inevitable for NL to join Canada - Oz and NZ became separate countries. The question seems to assume it had to happen. However, given the dire state of finances in both St. John’s and London after WWII, it was definitely the right choice to make at the time.
2. NL wasn’t anything like completely Protestant in the 19’th century. Catholics were a substantial minority in the province and, I think, a majority in the city of St. John’s. The influence of religion seems to be misunderstood here as well. By 1948, confederation with Canada was much more popular among Protestants, one reason being the fear among the Irish Catholic clergy of domination by their French brethren.
3. Dactylic pronunciation of the island’s name is acceptable - some locals say NEWfoundland - and is infinitely preferable to NewFOUNDland, but the commonest pronunciation is anapestic, like ‘understand’ - NoofunLAND and LabraDOR
2. NL wasn’t anything like completely Protestant in the 19’th century. Catholics were a substantial minority in the province and, I think, a majority in the city of St. John’s. The influence of religion seems to be misunderstood here as well. By 1948, confederation with Canada was much more popular among Protestants, one reason being the fear among the Irish Catholic clergy of domination by their French brethren.
3. Dactylic pronunciation of the island’s name is acceptable - some locals say NEWfoundland - and is infinitely preferable to NewFOUNDland, but the commonest pronunciation is anapestic, like ‘understand’ - NoofunLAND and LabraDOR
Mostly, I use TERREneuve and not terreNEUVE.
JaredMilne @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 4:44 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
1. It wasn’t inevitable for NL to join Canada - Oz and NZ became separate countries. The question seems to assume it had to happen. However, given the dire state of finances in both St. John’s and London after WWII, it was definitely the right choice to make at the time.
2. NL wasn’t anything like completely Protestant in the 19’th century. Catholics were a substantial minority in the province and, I think, a majority in the city of St. John’s. The influence of religion seems to be misunderstood here as well. By 1948, confederation with Canada was much more popular among Protestants, one reason being the fear among the Irish Catholic clergy of domination by their French brethren.
3. Dactylic pronunciation of the island’s name is acceptable - some locals say NEWfoundland - and is infinitely preferable to NewFOUNDland, but the commonest pronunciation is anapestic, like ‘understand’ - NoofunLAND and LabraDOR
2. NL wasn’t anything like completely Protestant in the 19’th century. Catholics were a substantial minority in the province and, I think, a majority in the city of St. John’s. The influence of religion seems to be misunderstood here as well. By 1948, confederation with Canada was much more popular among Protestants, one reason being the fear among the Irish Catholic clergy of domination by their French brethren.
3. Dactylic pronunciation of the island’s name is acceptable - some locals say NEWfoundland - and is infinitely preferable to NewFOUNDland, but the commonest pronunciation is anapestic, like ‘understand’ - NoofunLAND and LabraDOR
I'm suddenly reminded of the "Pirates of Water Street", the wealthy St. John's merchants whose conflicts with the outlying communities were apparently one of the biggest divisions in Newfoundland pre-Confederation society. The Pirates were some of the biggest opponents of Confederation, while IIRC it was more popular in the outlying areas because of the promises of the social safety net. Ottawa was setting that up in the late 1940s, particularly the old age pension system, so I can see a lot of lower-income Newfoundlanders finding that appealing. I think it was also one of Joey Smallwood's biggest selling points.
herbie @ Sat Jul 03, 2021 9:12 pm
I was going to say they took so long because they're like cats. In? Out? Let me contemplate the benefits...
but everyone I ever met from there would have your engine out and rebuilt while you were still reaching for the hood release.