Separation Is Not The Solution To Provincial Problems
Douwe @ Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:09 pm
Any time events do not go Alberta's way there is threat of separation by a few disgruntled citizens, but it never gets much beyond complaining. Going back to the 1970s there have been several parties dedicated to separation, but they never got more than a few votes.
Douwe @ Sat Feb 02, 2019 8:13 pm
peck420 peck420:
Incorrect!
Canada is a signatory to the Rights of Access of Land Locked States to and from the Sea and Freedom of Transit (say that 10 times fast!)
It would actually be easier for Alberta to ship her products if she separated.
Canada would be forced to remove herself from the UN, or allow transit. Period.
The only reason it can be stopped now, is because it is an INTERNAL matter. If it ever becomes an EXTERNAL matter, external rules apply.
Canada is a signatory to the Rights of Access of Land Locked States to and from the Sea and Freedom of Transit (say that 10 times fast!)
It would actually be easier for Alberta to ship her products if she separated.
Canada would be forced to remove herself from the UN, or allow transit. Period.
The only reason it can be stopped now, is because it is an INTERNAL matter. If it ever becomes an EXTERNAL matter, external rules apply.
I rather wonder about that. The US under Obama had no qualms about blocking one of Alberta's pipelines. It appears that the treaty you mention works better in theory than in fact. The UN has been remarkably ineffectual when it comes to forcing member nations to comply to anything.
Thanos @ Sat Feb 02, 2019 10:12 pm
Douwe Douwe:
Any time events do not go Alberta's way.....
Can't express enough how tired I am of statements like that, especially given the nature of an economic catastrophe that's still going on with practically no significant help given to Alberta by the federal government. It's comments of that nature that do more to keep separatism alive out here than anything else.
JaredMilne @ Sun Feb 03, 2019 12:01 pm
peck420 peck420:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
If Alberta left, we'd still be land locked. But instead of the Federal government's ability to control interprovincial trade, we'd have a hostile country able to screw us even harder for our resources and transit through their territory.
Incorrect!
Canada is a signatory to the Rights of Access of Land Locked States to and from the Sea and Freedom of Transit (say that 10 times fast!)
It would actually be easier for Alberta to ship her products if she separated.
Canada would be forced to remove herself from the UN, or allow transit. Period.
The only reason it can be stopped now, is because it is an INTERNAL matter. If it ever becomes an EXTERNAL matter, external rules apply.
Wrong, wrong, wrong.
Like I said in my original post, The UN Convention On The Law Of The Sea does not immediately apply to pipelines. Here's the text of Section 124 for your reading pleasure, courtesy of the United Nations:
$1:
Article124
Use of terms
1. For the purposes of this Convention:
(a) "land-locked State" means a State which has no sea-coast;
(b) "transit State" means a State, with or without a sea-coast, situated between a land-locked State and the sea, through whose territory traffic in transit passes;
(c) "traffic in transit" means transit of persons, baggage, goods and means of transport across the territory of one or more transit States, when the passage across such territory, with or without trans-shipment, warehousing, breaking bulk or change in the mode of transport, is only a portion of a complete journey which begins or terminates within the territory of the land-locked State;
(d) "means of transport" means:
(i) railway rolling stock, sea, lake and river craft and road vehicles;
(ii) where local conditions so require, porters and pack animals.
2. Land-locked States and transit States may, by agreement between them, include as means of transport pipelines and gas lines and means of transport other than those included in paragraph 1.
If Alberta became independent, we would still have to get the rest of Canada's consent to build a pipeline across B.C. or anywhere else to get our resources to tidewater.
I cannot emphasize this enough-the UN Convention will be of no help, and even if it was the PR disaster that would result from trying to forcibly impose a pipeline would send private investors running for the hills.
Thanos @ Sun Feb 03, 2019 4:58 pm
When the situation with it's stench of hypocrisy pisses off someone as mellow and well-respected as Ron Ghitter maybe it's time for the accusers to think a bit on the tension-building rhetoric they're recklessly using:
https://calgaryherald.com/opinion/colum ... or-ghitter
$1:
As a Calgary native who has had the privilege of serving in both the Alberta legislature and federal Parliament, I view the present evolution of the Canadian federation with deep concern and, sadly, disgust.
Historically in Canada, it has always been a challenge to bring together the competing diversities that make up this once great nation, but an underlying premise of its adaptability was always the commitment to treating all parts of this country equitably with fairness and understanding.
We have not met the challenge. Today the narrow self-interests of the federal government and the hypocritical actions of our provinces, municipalities and Indigenous peoples have all coalesced to cause substantial economic harm to our nation and the isolation of the province of Alberta
While the federal government fawns over the vote-rich province of Quebec in the hope of gaining the seats now held by the NDP and the Bloc, they play word games with the aspirations of Alberta and Canadians who must obtain pipelines to sell its oil to jurisdictions other than the United States, which is now self-sufficient.
Under the guise of concern over the environment and First Nations rights, the feds propose legislation that will severely hamper oil and gas development in Canada. They say they support the pipeline but their actions belie such statements. Even their purchase of the pipeline seems to be an insincere (and costly) charade.
It’s a certainty that the demands of the province of Quebec for $300 million for immigrants’ expenses, more control over immigration, income tax collection, more money for Bombardier and support for dairy farmers will be accepted.
Meanwhile, Alberta contributes billions of dollars in equalization payments over the years so that Quebec can balance its budget while deficits are the truths in a struggling Alberta.
Meanwhile, the federal government was all over General Motors, decrying the loss of 2,500 jobs, while the loss of thousands of jobs in Alberta was but an unfortunate occurrence.
We are a forgotten appendage in the Canadian mosaic.
The provinces of Quebec and B.C. are hardly friends of Alberta in the ongoing saga of pipeline politics.
The premier of Quebec, while gladly accepting Alberta coin, says no pipeline will cross his borders with dirty Alberta oil, while tankers flow down the St. Lawrence Seaway with oil from Venezuela or rerouted from Saudia Arabia, Nigeria or the United States.
Meanwhile, rail cars containing oil move on land through Quebec, creating a danger to its communities.
The government of British Columbia raises the spectre of the alleged negative impact of a pipeline in that province while Victoria pours 130 million litres of sewage into the Pacific Ocean each day. The capital city also annually welcomes hundreds of cruise ships, which rack up an estimated 0.82 tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent per passenger and damage the environment at a rate of 36 cents for every kilometre they travel. Finally, where is the largest exporter of coal in North America? The port of Vancouver. The hypocrisy of the B.C. rhetoric is overwhelming.
And then there are the Indigenous communities, fuelled with funding from environmental and competitive energy organizations from the world’s biggest polluter, the U.S.
Canada’s environmental footprint in the world is inconsequential.
Those funders from south of our border, if they were honest, should spend their time and energy looking in the mirror and examining the negative environmental impacts of their coal, automotive and fracking industries. More hypocrisy.
Proposing arguments that the product of the oilsands will cause irreparable damage to the environment, the coastal waters and whales off the B.C. coast is overblown overspeak. More hypocrisy.
In my many years living and working in the wonderful city of Calgary, with all the ups and downs that we have faced with an oil-related economy, I have never experienced the gloom and unhappiness that hangs over our community today.
Our office buildings face unsupportable vacancies, our property taxes push upward, and our unemployment reaches heights that are unprecedented. Our always upbeat entrepreneurial population has become cynical and dispirited.
Serious discussions are taking place seeking alternatives to our place in Canada.
We are the victims of a dysfunctional confederation exhibiting an underlying hypocrisy that pervades our political processes that Alberta is seemingly helpless to overcome.
I am not suggesting separation. I am too much of a Canadian to ever propose such a measure. But I do suggest that we take steps to take more control within our borders and face the realities of Alberta in the 21st century.
Firstly, it is time to immediately renegotiate our equalization agreement or opt out of it and take the heat.
Secondly, we should take over immigration powers within the province.
Thirdly, we should take over our own income tax system and thereby control our own financial destiny.
Fourthly, we should examine every policy intertwined with the federal government and remove ourselves from them wherever possible. This includes everything from French on our corn flakes packages and elsewhere and positioning our securities and stock exchange institutions to become independent of federal controls.
We have learned from bitter experience that we cannot depend on Ottawa to be respectful of our needs and aspirations.
And within our province, we must “bite the bullet” and implement a sales tax (the fairest of all taxes) where the revenues are solely directed at reducing our debt. We can no longer anticipate the flow of energy revenues and to be the only jurisdiction in Canada without such a tax sends out the wrong message.
The time has come to stand on our own two feet. Ottawa hardly knows we exist other than as a source of revenue to feed its voracious appetite.
Enough is enough.
Historically in Canada, it has always been a challenge to bring together the competing diversities that make up this once great nation, but an underlying premise of its adaptability was always the commitment to treating all parts of this country equitably with fairness and understanding.
We have not met the challenge. Today the narrow self-interests of the federal government and the hypocritical actions of our provinces, municipalities and Indigenous peoples have all coalesced to cause substantial economic harm to our nation and the isolation of the province of Alberta
While the federal government fawns over the vote-rich province of Quebec in the hope of gaining the seats now held by the NDP and the Bloc, they play word games with the aspirations of Alberta and Canadians who must obtain pipelines to sell its oil to jurisdictions other than the United States, which is now self-sufficient.
Under the guise of concern over the environment and First Nations rights, the feds propose legislation that will severely hamper oil and gas development in Canada. They say they support the pipeline but their actions belie such statements. Even their purchase of the pipeline seems to be an insincere (and costly) charade.
It’s a certainty that the demands of the province of Quebec for $300 million for immigrants’ expenses, more control over immigration, income tax collection, more money for Bombardier and support for dairy farmers will be accepted.
Meanwhile, Alberta contributes billions of dollars in equalization payments over the years so that Quebec can balance its budget while deficits are the truths in a struggling Alberta.
Meanwhile, the federal government was all over General Motors, decrying the loss of 2,500 jobs, while the loss of thousands of jobs in Alberta was but an unfortunate occurrence.
We are a forgotten appendage in the Canadian mosaic.
The provinces of Quebec and B.C. are hardly friends of Alberta in the ongoing saga of pipeline politics.
The premier of Quebec, while gladly accepting Alberta coin, says no pipeline will cross his borders with dirty Alberta oil, while tankers flow down the St. Lawrence Seaway with oil from Venezuela or rerouted from Saudia Arabia, Nigeria or the United States.
Meanwhile, rail cars containing oil move on land through Quebec, creating a danger to its communities.
The government of British Columbia raises the spectre of the alleged negative impact of a pipeline in that province while Victoria pours 130 million litres of sewage into the Pacific Ocean each day. The capital city also annually welcomes hundreds of cruise ships, which rack up an estimated 0.82 tonnes of carbon dioxide equivalent per passenger and damage the environment at a rate of 36 cents for every kilometre they travel. Finally, where is the largest exporter of coal in North America? The port of Vancouver. The hypocrisy of the B.C. rhetoric is overwhelming.
And then there are the Indigenous communities, fuelled with funding from environmental and competitive energy organizations from the world’s biggest polluter, the U.S.
Canada’s environmental footprint in the world is inconsequential.
Those funders from south of our border, if they were honest, should spend their time and energy looking in the mirror and examining the negative environmental impacts of their coal, automotive and fracking industries. More hypocrisy.
Proposing arguments that the product of the oilsands will cause irreparable damage to the environment, the coastal waters and whales off the B.C. coast is overblown overspeak. More hypocrisy.
In my many years living and working in the wonderful city of Calgary, with all the ups and downs that we have faced with an oil-related economy, I have never experienced the gloom and unhappiness that hangs over our community today.
Our office buildings face unsupportable vacancies, our property taxes push upward, and our unemployment reaches heights that are unprecedented. Our always upbeat entrepreneurial population has become cynical and dispirited.
Serious discussions are taking place seeking alternatives to our place in Canada.
We are the victims of a dysfunctional confederation exhibiting an underlying hypocrisy that pervades our political processes that Alberta is seemingly helpless to overcome.
I am not suggesting separation. I am too much of a Canadian to ever propose such a measure. But I do suggest that we take steps to take more control within our borders and face the realities of Alberta in the 21st century.
Firstly, it is time to immediately renegotiate our equalization agreement or opt out of it and take the heat.
Secondly, we should take over immigration powers within the province.
Thirdly, we should take over our own income tax system and thereby control our own financial destiny.
Fourthly, we should examine every policy intertwined with the federal government and remove ourselves from them wherever possible. This includes everything from French on our corn flakes packages and elsewhere and positioning our securities and stock exchange institutions to become independent of federal controls.
We have learned from bitter experience that we cannot depend on Ottawa to be respectful of our needs and aspirations.
And within our province, we must “bite the bullet” and implement a sales tax (the fairest of all taxes) where the revenues are solely directed at reducing our debt. We can no longer anticipate the flow of energy revenues and to be the only jurisdiction in Canada without such a tax sends out the wrong message.
The time has come to stand on our own two feet. Ottawa hardly knows we exist other than as a source of revenue to feed its voracious appetite.
Enough is enough.
No to separation. Build that firewall though and it's a major step towards sovreignty association.
peck420 @ Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:03 am
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
If Alberta became independent, we would still have to get the rest of Canada's consent to build a pipeline across B.C. or anywhere else to get our resources to tidewater.
Then it is a dam good thing I said ship product...not build a pipe.
Try reading first, having your pretend tantrum after.
llama66 @ Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:18 am
Seriously, if we became independent, The States would be all over us like a fat kid on a smartie.
peck420 @ Mon Feb 04, 2019 9:35 am
Douwe Douwe:
I rather wonder about that. The US under Obama had no qualms about blocking one of Alberta's pipelines. It appears that the treaty you mention works better in theory than in fact. The UN has been remarkably ineffectual when it comes to forcing member nations to comply to anything.
The treaty we are discussing currently doesn't apply to Canada and the US...neither are land locked.
Douwe @ Tue Feb 05, 2019 12:58 am
Thanos Thanos:
Douwe Douwe:
Any time events do not go Alberta's way.....
Can't express enough how tired I am of statements like that, especially given the nature of an economic catastrophe that's still going on with practically no significant help given to Alberta by the federal government. It's comments of that nature that do more to keep separatism alive out here than anything else.
I live in Alberta. In the last 40 years I have watched as government after government of the wealthiest province in Canada stumbled along in the hope that oil prices would always stay high; ignoring the fact that a graph of oil prices over the last 150 years looks like something straight out of an economist's nightmare. Throw in arrogant premiers like Ralph Klein who went out of their way to thumb their noses at and insult the rest of Canada and you will realize why Alberta gets so little sympathy from the rest of the country. When it comes to whining about how hard done by it is Alberta rivals Quebec.
martin14 @ Tue Feb 05, 2019 6:56 am
Douwe Douwe:
When it comes to whining about how hard done by it is Alberta rivals Quebec.
This is.... almost.. true. No one can whine like the Frenchies.
llama66 @ Tue Feb 05, 2019 7:24 am
$1:
Any time events do not go Alberta's way there is threat of separation by a few disgruntled citizens,
I'm sorry, so as Albertan's we're supposed to be cool with the gang-bang you call "Confederation"? You're fine with a government that is openly hostile to your province's primary resource and employer? Your fine with the federal government seeing us as an ATM, rather than a valuable (non-ATM) component of this nation?
$1:
Throw in arrogant premiers like Ralph Klein
So because of "arrogant (long dead) premiers" like Ralph Klein we're getting what we deserve. Talk about sins of the father being visited upon the son.
$1:
you will realize why Alberta gets so little sympathy from the rest of the country.
No one is asking for Sympathy or pity. We're asking to be treated like a member of this Confederation, we're asking the federal government do it's job and protect the interests of ALL Canadians, not just the ones in Ontario and Quebec. I mean is it too much to ask?
But all this is clearly Ralph Klein's fault, so we all deserve to suffer.
Douwe @ Tue Feb 05, 2019 10:09 pm
llama66 llama66:
$1:
I'm sorry, so as Albertan's we're supposed to be cool with the gang-bang you call "Confederation"? You're fine with a government that is openly hostile to your province's primary resource and employer? Your fine with the federal government seeing us as an ATM, rather than a valuable (non-ATM) component of this nation?
So because of "arrogant (long dead) premiers" like Ralph Klein we're getting what we deserve. Talk about sins of the father being visited upon the son.
No one is asking for Sympathy or pity. We're asking to be treated like a member of this Confederation, we're asking the federal government do it's job and protect the interests of ALL Canadians, not just the ones in Ontario and Quebec. I mean is it too much to ask?
But all this is clearly Ralph Klein's fault, so we all deserve to suffer.
$1:
Throw in arrogant premiers like Ralph Klein
So because of "arrogant (long dead) premiers" like Ralph Klein we're getting what we deserve. Talk about sins of the father being visited upon the son.
$1:
you will realize why Alberta gets so little sympathy from the rest of the country.
No one is asking for Sympathy or pity. We're asking to be treated like a member of this Confederation, we're asking the federal government do it's job and protect the interests of ALL Canadians, not just the ones in Ontario and Quebec. I mean is it too much to ask?
But all this is clearly Ralph Klein's fault, so we all deserve to suffer.
I'm glad you replied. So far I have found this forum to be rather dull. I really like a good discussion and you seem happy to provide one. But let's get back to the topic at hand.
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.
And the image Klein and other premiers gave Alberta is similar to the image Quebec premiers have given Quebec. The fact that Klein is dead has nothing to do with it, so is Rene Levesque, but his secessionist movement created a lot of hostility toward Quebec.
The point is that Alberta has been governed badly with far too much dependence on a single resource. Rather than set up a stable fiscal program independent of the price of oil Alberta has instead opted to hope that oil prices stay high. The result has been a series of boom and bust budgets - spend like crazy when oil prices are high and then bite the bullet when oil prices inevitably fall. This could have been easily avoided with a little bit of foresight, especially given that historically oil prices were known to fluctuate wildly.
I am very concerned about the future of this province. It is likely in the near future that the demand for oil is going to be stable at best. I could be wrong about this, and I hope I am, but with green tech slowly taking over it appears that oil may go the way of coal. Alberta needs to take a good look at the way the world is going and plan for a future in which its most important resource may decline in importance.
DrCaleb @ Wed Feb 06, 2019 6:59 am
I don't disagree with all you write, but . . .
Douwe Douwe:
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.
Really? You've lived here for 40 years, but you didn't notice how Alberta is never a 'have not' province when it comes to federal tax redistribution? And you've never noticed how one province with huge natural resources, abundant clean energy, a population multiple times that of Alberta; somehow always seems to be a 'have not' Province with respect to those same federal tax funds?
Douwe Douwe:
Alberta needs to take a good look at the way the world is going and plan for a future in which its most important resource may decline in importance.
This is an example of what we do for our own good, not what the Feds do for us.
llama66 @ Wed Feb 06, 2019 7:40 am
$1:
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.
You're wrong. Plain and simple. Alberta gets back .70 cents for every dollar the federal government takes from us.
$1:
No province has a special claim to it.
Except Quebec, which has seen about 200 billion transferred to it over the lifetime of the Equalization Payment program, whereas Alberta has seen 92 million. Here is a handy chart to show you what I mean..
$1:
And the image Klein and other premiers gave Alberta is similar to the image Quebec premiers have given Quebec. The fact that Klein is dead has nothing to do with it, so is Rene Levesque, but his secessionist movement created a lot of hostility toward Quebec.
So I say again, so the sins of the father and all that... The current animosity towards Quebec is based largely on how THEY treat the rest of Canada. (ie. Demanding money and services; despite not signing the Constitution)
$1:
The point is that Alberta has been governed badly with far too much dependence on a single resource. Rather than set up a stable fiscal program independent of the price of oil Alberta has instead opted to hope that oil prices stay high. The result has been a series of boom and bust budgets - spend like crazy when oil prices are high and then bite the bullet when oil prices inevitably fall. This could have been easily avoided with a little bit of foresight, especially given that historically oil prices were known to fluctuate wildly.
It would have been wonderful if Alberta had managed our Royalties like Norway, however the structure of the equalization program made such an arrangement impossible.
$1:
I could be wrong about this, and I hope I am, but with green tech slowly taking over it appears that oil may go the way of coal.
Considering how many, many consumer products are made from Petrochemicals, this will not happen in our life time.
But your attitude of "Alberta has brought this on herself" is the reason why some Albertan's a tired of Confederation. Alberta has historically acted in good faith with the rest of the country. But we're tired of this abusive relationship. Treat us fairly or give us the right to self-determination.
fifeboy @ Wed Feb 06, 2019 10:27 am
martin14 martin14:
Douwe Douwe:
When it comes to whining about how hard done by it is Alberta rivals Quebec.
This is.... almost.. true. No one can whine like the Frenchies.
I had absolutely no idea you were French. Interesting times...
![[B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif "Drink up")