Separation Is Not The Solution To Provincial Problems
DrCaleb @ Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:48 am
Douwe Douwe:
As for balancing the budget there are several acts Alberta could take. One is a sales tax; another is simply raising income tax; and a third is bringing in some other sort of tax. Of course, it could also adopt the Ralph Klein solution and cut services. Mind you this would probably make the current recession much worse.
All of those would make it worse, and the tax option is political suicide.
We can run deficits for a while, and pay it off when revenues get better.
llama66 @ Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:53 am
$1:
As for balancing the budget there are several acts Alberta could take. One is a sales tax;
$1:
another is simply raising income tax;
$1:
and a third is bringing in some other sort of tax.
$1:
Of course, it could also adopt the Ralph Klein solution and cut services. Mind you this would probably make the current recession much worse.
So would taxes. Considering its the poor that gets punished by your "acts".
Douwe @ Fri Feb 08, 2019 7:27 pm
llama66 llama66:
$1:
First of all Alberta is not used as an ATM. Money that goes to the federal government can be used any way that government chooses. No province has a special claim to it.
You're wrong. Plain and simple. Alberta gets back .70 cents for every dollar the federal government takes from us.
$1:
No province has a special claim to it.
Except Quebec, which has seen about 200 billion transferred to it over the lifetime of the Equalization Payment program, whereas Alberta has seen 92 million. Here is a handy chart to show you what I mean..
$1:
And the image Klein and other premiers gave Alberta is similar to the image Quebec premiers have given Quebec. The fact that Klein is dead has nothing to do with it, so is Rene Levesque, but his secessionist movement created a lot of hostility toward Quebec.
So I say again, so the sins of the father and all that... The current animosity towards Quebec is based largely on how THEY treat the rest of Canada. (ie. Demanding money and services; despite not signing the Constitution)
$1:
The point is that Alberta has been governed badly with far too much dependence on a single resource. Rather than set up a stable fiscal program independent of the price of oil Alberta has instead opted to hope that oil prices stay high. The result has been a series of boom and bust budgets - spend like crazy when oil prices are high and then bite the bullet when oil prices inevitably fall. This could have been easily avoided with a little bit of foresight, especially given that historically oil prices were known to fluctuate wildly.
It would have been wonderful if Alberta had managed our Royalties like Norway, however the structure of the equalization program made such an arrangement impossible.
$1:
I could be wrong about this, and I hope I am, but with green tech slowly taking over it appears that oil may go the way of coal.
Considering how many, many consumer products are made from Petrochemicals, this will not happen in our life time.
But your attitude of "Alberta has brought this on herself" is the reason why some Albertan's a tired of Confederation. Alberta has historically acted in good faith with the rest of the country. But we're tired of this abusive relationship. Treat us fairly or give us the right to self-determination.
I guess you are going to have to show me where in the federal income tax form the line marked "Equalization Payments" is.
llama66 @ Fri Feb 08, 2019 8:14 pm
So you're fine with the Fed's taking without giving anything back? or is the privilege of being in this great nation payment enough for you?
JaredMilne @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:11 am
There was a piece in The Walrus just a few days ago that described a part of the Alberta mentality:
$1:
None of these results are in keeping with a simplistic understanding of the province’s ostensibly conservative political culture. Janet Brown, the pollster who led the cbc’s study, puts it this way: “If you want to understand Alberta, understand this: we love our social programs, we want to live in a fair and equitable society, we don’t like paying taxes, and we don’t trust Ottawa.”
Part of the problem, as Bootlegga put it on this very forum, is that we demand champagne services and beer taxes at the same time. Other provinces have had to make tough choices about raising taxes or cutting services, while we were able to pay for so many of the costs by immediately spending our oil royalty money. Now, people are up in arms about Premier Notley having increased taxes somewhat...even though we're still the lowest-taxed jurisdiction in Confederation. Premiers like Ralph Klein and his successors pissed away the legacy Peter Lougheed was trying to build, a legacy that would have served us well right now but that we as a province decided to be short-sighted about, having pissed away our oil booms.
But Albertans aren't the only one at fault here. As others in this thread have said, equalization could use a good overhaul so that it doesn't kick Alberta as much in the teeth. It might also have helped if the feds didn't mangle the pipeline approval process (and Stephen Harper is just as much as fault here as Justin Trudeau if not more so, since at least Trudeau is trying to clean up the mess Harper made) and better recognized Indigenous leadership instead of just relying on the band councils (which lack legitimacy in the minds of a lot of Natives, but that's a subject for another day).
More than that, though, I'd really love for the federal leadership to come right out and say it. Progressives call for everything from investment in green jobs to Indigenous language support to national pharmacare programs, all of which I can get behind...but where the hell will the money come from for that, given that the oil industry not only generates so many high-paying jobs, but spends so much money in other industries such as steel and transportation? Not to mention that even other Native peoples themselves are getting in on resource development, creating revenue sources that are not dependent on Ottawa bureaucrats and addressing one of the biggest criticisms activists have made.
This is something I've never heard the likes of Greenpeace activist and fellow U of A alumni Mike Hudema or performers like musician Neil Young and Jane Fonda (who don't seem to have a problem coming up here in fossil-fueled vehicles or flying above the oilsands in fossil-fueled helicopters) give a substantial answer to. Nor do all the leftist cheerleaders who portray Chavist Venezuela as a resistance to capitalism seem to have minded Hugo Chavez paying for all his socialist programs with oil money. Why is it alright for a place like Venezuela to do it, but not us?
So, as always in Canada, there are valid criticisms on both sides...but there are some questions I wish people on the left could give a more substantial answer to.
Thanos @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:30 am
$1:
...and better recognized Indigenous leadership instead of just relying on the band councils (which lack legitimacy in the minds of a lot of Natives, but that's a subject for another day)...
How does one negotiate with a band, or recognize their leadership, when apparently every single member of the group is some kind of "hereditary chief" and any single one of them can say "no" and apparently has the authority bring a massive infrastructure project to a permanent shuddering halt? Don't think that the well-heeled American friends of the likes of Neil Young or Daryl Hannah aren't mucking around in there too, exploiting the situation and probably literally paying off any potential Native dissenter they can find on a reserve like that one in BC, where a clever game of negating the will of the band council by giving the title of "chief" to anyone who wants it has obviously existed for years.
And this is what Trudeau caused, and probably wanted too, by getting rid of both the oversight over Native band councils in Canada and by putting an end to any critical examination of where and who the outside (American) financing of left-wing protest groups inside Canada is coming from. This is all classic Gerald Butts scheming designed for the express purpose of permanently destroying any and all oil & gas construction and expansion, something that a hardcore left-winger like Butts has always wanted. This can't be ignored because it's obviously aimed at Alberta with the specific aim of putting us down on out knees, stripping us of any economic influence or power we have, and making us the "unters" again against the "ubers" of the traditional Ontario/Quebec/Ottawa axis.
FieryVulpine @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 11:49 am
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Nor do all the leftist cheerleaders who portray Chavist Venezuela as a resistance to capitalism seem to have minded Hugo Chavez paying for all his socialist programs with oil money. Why is it alright for a place like Venezuela to do it, but not us?
Take note of the current state of affairs in Venezuela and that Chavez's family are the wealthiest people in the county, but that is a whole other can of worms.
As to what you said about equalization, there is no political will to reform it in central Canada because of Quebec's favoured status. The Laurentian Consensus is still trapped in an early 20th century mindset on the nature of confederation despite their vacuous platitudes about progress, and I would argue that the very subject of the Constitution has made meaningful reform all but impossible (take Harper's attempt at Senate reform, for example.) That does make me question if there is any reason for Canada to even exist if its leadership and institutions have become calcified and immovable. Maybe it is just time to admit that Canadian experiment is a failure and move on unless our leadership can put its ego and delusions of grandeur aside and deal with the foundational problems this country has.
martin14 @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:19 pm
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Other provinces have had to make tough choices about raising taxes or cutting services, while we were able to pay
No, they have high taxes, no services, spiraling debt, and still beg money from Ottawa
for every last little thing.
JaredMilne @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:17 pm
Thanos Thanos:
How does one negotiate with a band, or recognize their leadership, when apparently every single member of the group is some kind of "hereditary chief" and any single one of them can say "no" and apparently has the authority bring a massive infrastructure project to a permanent shuddering halt? Don't think that the well-heeled American friends of the likes of Neil Young or Daryl Hannah aren't mucking around in there too, exploiting the situation and probably literally paying off any potential Native dissenter they can find on a reserve like that one in BC, where a clever game of negating the will of the band council by giving the title of "chief" to anyone who wants it has obviously existed for years.
And this is what Trudeau caused, and probably wanted too, by getting rid of both the oversight over Native band councils in Canada and by putting an end to any critical examination of where and who the outside (American) financing of left-wing protest groups inside Canada is coming from. This is all classic Gerald Butts scheming designed for the express purpose of permanently destroying any and all oil & gas construction and expansion, something that a hardcore left-winger like Butts has always wanted. This can't be ignored because it's obviously aimed at Alberta with the specific aim of putting us down on out knees, stripping us of any economic influence or power we have, and making us the "unters" again against the "ubers" of the traditional Ontario/Quebec/Ottawa axis.
And this is what Trudeau caused, and probably wanted too, by getting rid of both the oversight over Native band councils in Canada and by putting an end to any critical examination of where and who the outside (American) financing of left-wing protest groups inside Canada is coming from. This is all classic Gerald Butts scheming designed for the express purpose of permanently destroying any and all oil & gas construction and expansion, something that a hardcore left-winger like Butts has always wanted. This can't be ignored because it's obviously aimed at Alberta with the specific aim of putting us down on out knees, stripping us of any economic influence or power we have, and making us the "unters" again against the "ubers" of the traditional Ontario/Quebec/Ottawa axis.
We can and should call out the likes of the Neil Youngs, Daryl Hannahs and Jane Fondas, particularly in the latter cases when they're foreigners coming up here to stick their noses in our business. We can also counter the attacks of people like Linda McQuaig by pointing out how they cheerlead Venezuela, or at least asking them about it. We can also turn the "ethical oil" argument against them by asking them when the last time was that they visited the likes of Saudi Arabia and Venezuela to protest their resource exploitation.
As for the Native hereditary chiefs, the thing is that was the form of government that the Canadian government tried to forcibly dismantle through the residential schools, imposing the band council system through the Indian Act, and imposing various other restrictions such as potlatch bans and the reserve pass system. That's why, as I said, many band councils have a real legitimacy problem with many of their constituents, not to mention that Indian Affairs can unilaterally override a lot of their decisions anyway.
Court cases like Delgamuukw and Tsilhqot'in have confirmed that Indigenous title is still a full part of the Canadian Constitution. This is especially important for places like most of B.C. where no Treaty was ever formally signed. Hence, the Wet'suweten title and governance rights are still in place, and they've been recognized under the British-derived law tradition we use in most of Canada.
And resource development deals have been made. B.C. Native activist Arthur Manuel described several instances in B.C. and Quebec in the forestry industry where logging companies worked out deals with the local First Nations for full permission to work in the traditional lands.
As a postscript, there's at least one Native-led initiative that would dispense with the need for pipelines altogether by recycling plastics with bitumen to form bitumen "pucks" that could be shipped much more safely than current methods. Who knows, the whole pipeline issue might end up being moot if this catches on.
llama66 @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:44 pm
1. I've always been against the Indian Act, I think it's wrong to have a system that perpetuates a two tier citizenry. Dismantle the Act, issue out a 1 time dispensation and be done with it, allow the bands to have the right to police their own land, really... Make a few more provinces, allow the Bands to form government and enact their own laws (within Canada). I was 16 when the last school was closed, I'm not responsible, so don't expect more that a "that was shitty" from me.
2. I hope the idea of the puck and the Energon (I think thats what they're called) cubes catches on.
Thanos @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:55 pm
I've never seen a Canadian leftist yet that has any problem at all with importing oil from the Saudis, Iran, Venezuela, or even the US. The sad reality is that they detest Alberta that much more that they ever would some terror-state or TrumpWorld.
At this stage the evidence, shown by the foot-dragging of the federal government and by the non-stop anti-Alberta commentary from the rest of Canada makes things completely clear - they have nothing but contempt for us and want us to fall, no matter how much damage that fall will in turn cause to them due to lost energy sector revenues. The polling that says otherwise means nothing. Even if the average Joe Canadian in the other provinces tells a pollster that personally he's on Alberta's side, the entire Canadian left, the PMO, the federal Liberals & NDP, most of the provincial Liberals & NDP, and the entire power structure in Quebec wants to see us toppled. It's obvious to anyone with the eyes and wisdom to see where all of this is heading. We stepped out of the boundaries of what they regard as our proper inferior position in Confederation and they're going to make us hurt for doing so.
llama66 @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:01 pm
Cutting ones nose off to spite their face.
Thanos @ Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:20 pm
llama66 llama66:
Cutting ones nose off to spite their face.
Hope they have fun dealing with Jason Kenney. Personally I don't trust him on budget cuts and austerity and won't vote for him because of it. But that's not relevant. If they think they had trouble in the past with the likes of Lougheed and Klein then they're in for a treat when Kenney starts up with some genuinely dangerous brinksmanship. He already hates Trudeau from dealing with him in Parliament. If he has the chance to hurt Trudeau by any means he can then he will certainly start, at a minimum, building that firewall to protect Alberta as much as possible from Ottawa. And I also think he'll take it as far as breathing new life into the old sovereignty association idea the Quebec separatists gave birth to back in the bad old days of a true separatist threat. With people out here as pissed off as they are right now the overall population will massively support it. It will essentially be a full retreat by Alberta from any co-operation at all with Ottawa on basically everything and the seizing of every bit of power we can as is legal under the federal system.
Kenney will also fuck BC over as much as he can in revenge for what their NDP & Green alliance has done to us. Any partnerships of any sort between BC and Alberta are going on the endangered list. The days of being reasonable, the way Notley's tried to be, with obvious ideological enemies in Vancouver & Victoria will be coming to an end very soon. Sabotaging our economic health for their enviro-fantasies is going to get one hell of a blowback in retaliation.
llama66 @ Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:24 am
Kenney will be like a open flame on dry tinder...
JaredMilne @ Sun Feb 10, 2019 11:05 am
Thanos Thanos:
I've never seen a Canadian leftist yet that has any problem at all with importing oil from the Saudis, Iran, Venezuela, or even the US. The sad reality is that they detest Alberta that much more that they ever would some terror-state or TrumpWorld.
At this stage the evidence, shown by the foot-dragging of the federal government and by the non-stop anti-Alberta commentary from the rest of Canada makes things completely clear - they have nothing but contempt for us and want us to fall, no matter how much damage that fall will in turn cause to them due to lost energy sector revenues. The polling that says otherwise means nothing. Even if the average Joe Canadian in the other provinces tells a pollster that personally he's on Alberta's side, the entire Canadian left, the PMO, the federal Liberals & NDP, most of the provincial Liberals & NDP, and the entire power structure in Quebec wants to see us toppled. It's obvious to anyone with the eyes and wisdom to see where all of this is heading. We stepped out of the boundaries of what they regard as our proper inferior position in Confederation and they're going to make us hurt for doing so.
At this stage the evidence, shown by the foot-dragging of the federal government and by the non-stop anti-Alberta commentary from the rest of Canada makes things completely clear - they have nothing but contempt for us and want us to fall, no matter how much damage that fall will in turn cause to them due to lost energy sector revenues. The polling that says otherwise means nothing. Even if the average Joe Canadian in the other provinces tells a pollster that personally he's on Alberta's side, the entire Canadian left, the PMO, the federal Liberals & NDP, most of the provincial Liberals & NDP, and the entire power structure in Quebec wants to see us toppled. It's obvious to anyone with the eyes and wisdom to see where all of this is heading. We stepped out of the boundaries of what they regard as our proper inferior position in Confederation and they're going to make us hurt for doing so.
This is why I think the NDP royally fucked up by choosing Jagmeet Singh when they could have had northern Ontario MP Charlie Angus as leader instead. Angus has actually supported developing and exporting our resources, and gotten heat from leftist websites over it. He's also been one of the biggest critics of the underfunding of Indigenous communities, and he's good friends with some of the prominent Native activists out there...so it shows that there might actually be some room for common ground on this.
Ironically, Francois Legault has said that he wants to make Quebec into a have-province and contributor to equalization. Lucien Bouchard, of all people, also encouraged Quebec to develop its own oil resources. So it'd be interesting to see if Legault actually tries to live up to his promise, especially since he has a large majority in the National Assembly which several pundits identified as a large dissatisfaction with the Quebec status quo. And even Philippe Couillard was actively working to get Quebec's books balanced again, making him one of those rare politicians who was better at actual governing than at campaigning.