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you seem to be obsessed with food coming from dumpsters. i know everyone has a weird fetish, but that really takes the cake.

   

But there's nothing in the bible or the Torah that naturally leads to secularism, so why bring it up? Gay porn and Here Comes Honey Boo-Boo also evolved out of Judeo Christian systems but that is an irrelevant fact because there's nothing in the religion that natrually leads to the latter.

Historical events came to pass that lead to the Enlightening, which just happened to be in lands that were also Christian (again, the "Judeo" doesn't apply).

   

Should also be pointed out, as secularism grew in christian countries it influenced Christianity. I don't think it's an accident that the vast majority of western Christians are extremely tolerant of other religious views. There are exceptions of course, but I can't remember the last time we had a religious riot here in Edmonton.

   

But secularism came along so much later than Christianity, you can't possible say they are hand in hand. Secularism arose from the Scientific Revolution. And humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islamic world before it took root in Europe.

It's also not true that are "NO" minority rights in "EVERY" Muslim country. Although they are certain degraded right now, Egypt, Iraq, Syria to name a few, have some provisions.

But the whole thing is a red herring because the polices of a state and the policies of the people who leave that state would not necessarily need to be the same and would logically be different. Would a Harperite Conservative who flees Liberal Canada to live in Texas have to answer for Justin Trudeau's policies? Could you see some Texan saying "This Canuck doesn't want to pay high taxes but Canada has high taxes, so he's a hypocrite".

   

This. Here is a list of items that qualify as ID, of which you only need 2 to vote:



http://www.elections.ca/content2.aspx?s ... dex&lang=e

The items in bold do not have a picture, wherein a hijab makes zero difference. Just another opportunity to slag minorities.

   

Probably better to address my whole point instead of just a part of it. I covered what you are saying here in the latter part of my paragraph. I said secularism evolved out of Christianity, didn't go hand in hand in it.

If humanist thought was prevalent in medieval Islam, it it seems to have devolved now. Even a Sufi leader expressed sympathy for 911 - I couldn't believe that, I thought they were much more tolerant. The Alawites and Ismaili seem to be pretty tolerant, but then they are a small minority. That's like saying that medieval Islamic science was more advanced than Christian. Sure, but what have they done lately? Islam has a big problem, I don't think any fair minded person can deny that.

   

Definitely, but these values never stay buried for long. Cultures go through cycles of ignorance and enlightenment.

My point is only that Christianity is not the source of all good in the world. Rather, distancing oneself from religion (any religion) is the way to go.

   

Europe, sure. In the US the fundies are a significant force that can pass all sorts of idiotic laws like women having to be probed before having an abortion. If for some reason they ever achieve a majority, it won't be fun down there either. Then there's the African and other third world Christians.

But absolutely. If Christianity had not already become more tolerant in Europe, the enlightenment would not have happened, would have gone the way science did in Islam.

   

Hope you didn't find it necessary to make that point with me. Any religion has positive and negative aspects. Distancing yourself from religious dogma and insularity is the way to go, but it's not necessary to distance oneself totally from religion. Lots of enlightened thinkers in religion, some even within Islam, just more suppressed there. Lots of secular morons as well.

   

Tip of the Iceberg

   

As boorish as Christians can be they're no where near as deeply trapped in a totalitarian mindset as Muslims are. For example, for all the Kim Davis' and mental midget GOP candidates that are out there, they aren't doing things like maintaining a hit list of atheists to murder. Nor do the courts in places like the US, as batshit as some of the judges can be, do things like sentence someone to have their hands cut off for blasphemy.

This is why in the long run there is no hope for Muslims. Their period of social and cultural advancement happened centuries ago, after they absorbed what was remained of what the Greeks and Romans left behind in North Africa and Asia Minor, but it's long since died out. As long as the religion controls the state there will be no enlightenment. Just the same thing every day. God is great, but human life is cheap. And don't step out of line, ever, because you know what's coming for you if you do.

   

The only quarrel I have with your post is that I personally know lots of Muslims who are no less enlightened than the rest of us.

Not all Muslims are fundamentalists or Islamists.

   

It doesn't matter how many individuals might be enlightened. Not when the religion controls the state to such a massive degree. And not when the Islamic state is more than willing to employ wide-scale medieval brutality in order to maintain absolute control of every single aspect of every single Muslim's daily life. It's got to be like living under an Inquistional regime except this time the inquistioners are armed with modern military equipment that the Americans and Russians have been giving to them willy-nilly for the last sixty years.

   

It matters when you're attempting to treat those enlightened Muslims the same as if they're members of ISIS

   

Bringing the niqab to Canada isn't enlightened. It's primitive and atavistic.

   

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