Trudeau deficit plan will sink Canadians
bootlegga @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 5:51 am
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
bootlegga bootlegga:
The fact that he writes for Sun Media is the real reason behind his opposition, not the fact that the Liberals are merely proposing to do exactly what Harper has done for the past 7 years.
Or perhaps his opposition exists because he's right?
Harper hasn't purposely gone into deficit for the last 7 years because interest rates are low and because he wanted to stimulate the economy, beyond the funding after the Global crisis.
We're seeing the same old double standard here with respect to the Liberal party and it's supporters. They spent the better half of a decade criticizing Harper for going into debt and now, because it's their idea, it's brilliant!
His opposition is wrong in my books.
In fairness to Harper, I'd say two-thirds of the debt ($120 billion or so) he added were unavoidable, even if he had been in a majority government situation. The two back to back $50+ billion deficit years were fine by me and I'd argue the 2010-11 deficit was okay too, as they cushioned the economy and helped us weather a serious economic storm.
IMHO, the only thing I think he missed was pumping some of that into our military - we had a number of Canadian manufacturers who could have built use new SAR planes, APCs for the Army and shipyards that could have begun the NSP years earlier had they used some of that money. Even and extra $5 billion in each of those two years would have done wonders for the military.
However, I do take issue with the other $50 billion or so, because they were caused by boutique tax cuts aimed at buying votes - GST cuts, corporate tax rate cuts, income splitting, TFSAs and all the rest. Harper inherited a massive surplus, $14 billion/year IIRC and by 2008, it was down to a billion or so.
Now, I'm all for cutting taxes when it's possible, but the fact is our debt was still at $400+ billion, even after a decade of surpluses under the Liberals. He should have staggered out those tax cuts, to further reduce debt and keep his deficits.
Instead he opted for vote buying and ran deficits even the economy was strong and oil was $100/barrel. It's very hypocritical that he is critical of JT doing the same thing, even more so as it looks like Canada will go into a recession (if it isn't already in one).
It probably won't be as bad as the subprime fiasco was, but we're almost certainly headed fora few quarters of recession, and as such, we should invest in infrastructure while interest rates are low and labour is plentiful (as I said in the other infra thread).
The fact that Harper and his party couldn't balance the books when the economy was strong and oil was $100 a barrel really says more about his economic record than it does anyone elses.
OnTheIce @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 7:16 am
bootlegga bootlegga:
However, I do take issue with the other $50 billion or so, because they were caused by boutique tax cuts aimed at buying votes - GST cuts, corporate tax rate cuts, income splitting, TFSAs and all the rest.
A couple points on this...why do you assume the economy would have been exactly the same without these tax cuts & programs?
People who don't support these tax cuts would like us to believe they have zero effect besides adding debt. That's just not true.
bootlegga bootlegga:
Now, I'm all for cutting taxes when it's possible, but the fact is our debt was still at $400+ billion, even after a decade of surpluses under the Liberals. He should have staggered out those tax cuts, to further reduce debt and keep his deficits.
But why? Interest rates were low. Isn't that the time to borrow to put more money in the pockets of Canadians?
bootlegga bootlegga:
Instead he opted for vote buying and ran deficits even the economy was strong and oil was $100/barrel. It's very hypocritical that he is critical of JT doing the same thing, even more so as it looks like Canada will go into a recession (if it isn't already in one).
The economy hasn't been "strong" during Harper's tenure. Our economy is fragile, Global and unpredictable.
bootlegga bootlegga:
It probably won't be as bad as the subprime fiasco was, but we're almost certainly headed fora few quarters of recession, and as such, we should invest in infrastructure while interest rates are low and labour is plentiful (as I said in the other infra thread).
The fact that Harper and his party couldn't balance the books when the economy was strong and oil was $100 a barrel really says more about his economic record than it does anyone elses.
The fact that Harper and his party couldn't balance the books when the economy was strong and oil was $100 a barrel really says more about his economic record than it does anyone elses.
You can't have it both ways.
In the same post, your criticize Harper for going into debt because you don't agree with his methods of stimulating the economy but you praise Trudeau because you support his method of stimulus.
Zipperfish @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:23 am
It's going to be tough to balance the budget this year, or the next couple of years. I don't think the Conservatives trickle-down economy is working--corporations are not re-investing in Canada. Dropping the GST to 5% didn't help, and resulted in a lot of debt. It'll be a tough road for whomever gets in.
OnTheIce @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 8:29 am
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
It's going to be tough to balance the budget this year, or the next couple of years. I don't think the Conservatives trickle-down economy is working--corporations are not re-investing in Canada. Dropping the GST to 5% didn't help, and resulted in a lot of debt. It'll be a tough road for whomever gets in.
Dropping the GST didn't help?
Can you provide anything to back that claim?
We're seeing the same story that I noted above. A Liberal supporter is making a claim that a Conservative tax cut did nothing but add debt. According to most Liberals here at CKA, tax cuts don't by Conservative governments have no effect at all on the economy. All they do is add debt.
Zipperfish @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:09 am
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Dropping the GST didn't help?
Can you provide anything to back that claim?
We're seeing the same story that I noted above. A Liberal supporter is making a claim that a Conservative tax cut did nothing but add debt. According to most Liberals here at CKA, tax cuts don't by Conservative governments have no effect at all on the economy. All they do is add debt.
Can you provide anything to back that claim?
We're seeing the same story that I noted above. A Liberal supporter is making a claim that a Conservative tax cut did nothing but add debt. According to most Liberals here at CKA, tax cuts don't by Conservative governments have no effect at all on the economy. All they do is add debt.
I gather a lot of economists at the time said that it would make more sense to cut income tax, as opposed to the GST. Also, it's quote well documented that corporations, despite a pretty generous tax regime in Canada, are not reinvesting in Canada.
Heres' the conservative Financial Post on the matter:
'Not much bang for the buck’: Harper’s $60B corporate tax cuts under fire
And here's the conservative Globe and Mail on the GST cut:
Canada lost when Ottawa cut the GST
ShepherdsDog @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 9:44 am
tax cuts should be going to small and medium businesses seeing as they employ 80% of the work force and tend to integrate themselves into local communities, which results in an economic boost to other local businesses.
OnTheIce @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:19 am
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I gather a lot of economists at the time said that it would make more sense to cut income tax, as opposed to the GST. Also, it's quote well documented that corporations, despite a pretty generous tax regime in Canada, are not reinvesting in Canada.
Heres' the conservative Financial Post on the matter:
'Not much bang for the buck’: Harper’s $60B corporate tax cuts under fire
Heres' the conservative Financial Post on the matter:
'Not much bang for the buck’: Harper’s $60B corporate tax cuts under fire
To be fair, that quote was from the NDP Finance Critic and largely an opinion piece with few facts.
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Another OP.
BartSimpson @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:29 am
Winnipegger Winnipegger:
I wrote a Letter to the Editor. Let's see if it gets published.
I get published all the time when I write letters to the editor.
My personal style for assuring a letter gets published is:
1. Make it as short as possible while still communicating the point.
2. Leave out the flowery words.
3, ALWAYS end the letter with what I call a "zinger".
Example: The last issue of the Sacramento News & Review had a story that promoted the notion of people being forced to have MMR vaccinations - even if that means having police hold them down while they get an injection. No shit.
My response is as follows:
$1:
Re “Immune to the truth” by Jill Stewart (SN&R Feature Story, August 20):
When the topic is abortion or using illicit drugs, SN&R will scream from the rooftops that, “It’s my body and it’s my choice!” But you’re going to force people to take vaccinations that other countries like Japan have banned as a threat to public health. You first.
When the topic is abortion or using illicit drugs, SN&R will scream from the rooftops that, “It’s my body and it’s my choice!” But you’re going to force people to take vaccinations that other countries like Japan have banned as a threat to public health. You first.
I picked up this style from an old school political wonk named Lacey Spake - who passed away some years ago but whose wisdom I still hold to.
Hopefully his wisdom will work for you, too!
![[B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif "Drink up")
CountLothian @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:32 am
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
tax cuts should be going to small and medium businesses seeing as they employ 80% of the work force and tend to integrate themselves into local communities, which results in an economic boost to other local businesses.
The level of small business tax cuts have seen their ceiling.
It's fine the way they are and they can even see a reasonable tax hike and still be competitive.
The problem with right wing people is they live off campaign fodder for their ill informed minds. Then produce thoughts like the one Shemp here is proposing.
PluggyRug @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 10:55 am
CountLothian CountLothian:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
tax cuts should be going to small and medium businesses seeing as they employ 80% of the work force and tend to integrate themselves into local communities, which results in an economic boost to other local businesses.
The level of small business tax cuts have seen their ceiling.
It's fine the way they are and they can even see a reasonable tax hike and still be competitive.
The problem with right wing people is they live off campaign fodder for their ill informed minds. Then produce thoughts like the one Shemp here is proposing.
Shep's correct. I ran a small business in Ontario for 20 years. Under Mike Harris we did okay but as soon as Dalton MacSquinty (Liberal) came into power our taxes surreptitiously increased to the point we had to lay off a couple of people.
CountLothian @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:04 am
PluggyRug PluggyRug:
CountLothian CountLothian:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
tax cuts should be going to small and medium businesses seeing as they employ 80% of the work force and tend to integrate themselves into local communities, which results in an economic boost to other local businesses.
The level of small business tax cuts have seen their ceiling.
It's fine the way they are and they can even see a reasonable tax hike and still be competitive.
The problem with right wing people is they live off campaign fodder for their ill informed minds. Then produce thoughts like the one Shemp here is proposing.
Shep's correct. I ran a small business in Ontario for 20 years. Under Mike Harris we did okay but as soon as Dalton MacSquinty (Liberal) came into power our taxes surreptitiously increased to the point we had to lay off a couple of people.
what provincial taxes are you talking about.
I run a small business and none of them to my knowledge( i have an accountant) are provincial,except whats now crammed into the HST.
and Shemp is never correct, you should realize that posting off him is the kiss of death
Zipperfish @ Mon Aug 31, 2015 11:31 am
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I gather a lot of economists at the time said that it would make more sense to cut income tax, as opposed to the GST. Also, it's quote well documented that corporations, despite a pretty generous tax regime in Canada, are not reinvesting in Canada.
Heres' the conservative Financial Post on the matter:
'Not much bang for the buck’: Harper’s $60B corporate tax cuts under fire
Heres' the conservative Financial Post on the matter:
'Not much bang for the buck’: Harper’s $60B corporate tax cuts under fire
To be fair, that quote was from the NDP Finance Critic and largely an opinion piece with few facts.
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Another OP.
Opinions that also provide evidence. If you choose to ignore it, that's your prerogative.
OnTheIce @ Tue Sep 01, 2015 4:52 am
Boots & Zip, perhaps either if you can offer some insight to the change of tune (flip-flop) from Trudeau.
Back in Jan-Feb, he made the stupid comment to CPAC about "the budget will balance itself".
In April, he said his plan would be fully costed and the budget would be balanced.
6 weeks ago, in July, he said "I've committed to continuing to run balanced budgets".
Now, he plans to run deficits of $10 billion per year up to 2019.
Why the flip-flop?
Zipperfish @ Tue Sep 01, 2015 6:41 am
OnTheIce OnTheIce:
Boots & Zip, perhaps either if you can offer some insight to the change of tune (flip-flop) from Trudeau.
Back in Jan-Feb, he made the stupid comment to CPAC about "the budget will balance itself".
In April, he said his plan would be fully costed and the budget would be balanced.
6 weeks ago, in July, he said "I've committed to continuing to run balanced budgets".
Now, he plans to run deficits of $10 billion per year up to 2019.
Why the flip-flop?
Back in Jan-Feb, he made the stupid comment to CPAC about "the budget will balance itself".
In April, he said his plan would be fully costed and the budget would be balanced.
6 weeks ago, in July, he said "I've committed to continuing to run balanced budgets".
Now, he plans to run deficits of $10 billion per year up to 2019.
Why the flip-flop?
You can always count on OTI for the offical Conservative party line.
Globe and Mail Globe and Mail:
“Look at Justin Trudeau over the past six weeks,” Harper told a crowd of Tory faithful gathered at an Ottawa hotel.
“He’s gone from saying, ‘Well, deficits don’t matter because the budget will balance itself,’ to ‘Look, we’re going to have a deficit, isn’t it an awful thing?’ and now, ‘No, I want to run deficits because they’re a good thing.’
“He’s gone from saying, ‘Well, deficits don’t matter because the budget will balance itself,’ to ‘Look, we’re going to have a deficit, isn’t it an awful thing?’ and now, ‘No, I want to run deficits because they’re a good thing.’
OnTheIce @ Tue Sep 01, 2015 7:26 am
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
You can always count on OTI for the offical Conservative party line.
You can always count on Zip to avoid the tough questions. Nice dodge.