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Perhaps what the highway of tears needs is a well armed and well prepared Ms Doubtfire to spend some time hitchiking along it.The legal industry hasn't come up with any better solutions.<br /> If the Picton affair had targeted rich non natives, it would have been delt with far sooner and been given a far higher priority .<br /> So what kind of Canada do those responsible for such racist neglect want to leave their children ?<br /> Brent Swain

   

Sorry to neglect this thread for so long; I've been altogether absent from this site for far too long.<br /> <br /> First of all, an update: A private investigator has taken on the case. He hasn't actually VISITED the area in question yet, but has some leads and is collecting evidence, supposedly with the intent of helping police.<br /> <br /> http://www.terracestandard.com/portals-code/list.cgi?paper=33&cat=23&id=611823&more=<br /> <br /> Brent, your idea has a superficial appeal, but I can't see it working. There's so much abuse in the region that goes unreported, an undercover agent (your Mrs. Doubtfire) might bust a half dozen sleezebags, but we'd have no way of knowing if we actually nailed the one or ones responsible for the presumably heinous crimes that have occurred. And of course, this would tip off the real culprit and send him to some other remote area. But hell, like you said, no one's come up with a better idea yet.<br /> <br /> Hermanator, you're right that it's the RCMP conducting a clumsy investigation. They claim to have had some huge number of officers working on the job - 27 is the number that comes to mind. But of course, that's probably counting the guy who takes down the message when a tip gets called in. The stretch of highway in question ranges from Prince Rupert to Prince George, a stretch of about 800km I think, and with a total population of maybe 150 000 (including PG, which is more than half that). <br /> <br /> Marcarc, you're right that there exists a structure in these First Nations government that pays tribute to the original European oppression. Now it has tranformed to the same type of oppression plaguing much of the world: class-based oppression. Of course it's more pronounced on reserves, where the legacy of European colonization has left a culture of defeatists. <br /> <br /> (I know that sounds racist, and I've had this argument a lot of times with people who took in First Nations foster children, but I truly believe that the legacy of reform schools and having an entire lifestyle stolen from them has left First Nations with a lack of role models or a sense of hope. Which isn't to excuse those who turn to crime and so on, but without recognizing the actual causes of the higher incarceration and poverty rates among First Nations, it's impossible to actually solve the problem. I'm sure we could assimilate the First Nations with no problem in a generation. But if we want to allow them to preserve, or rather to reconstruct, their cultural identity, this process WILL take more time, patience, understanding and, yes, resources).<br /> <br /> Gaulois, yep, I HIGHLY recommend the website www.ghostchild.org as well. It is moving, inspriational, and gives a whole new set of perspectives. I found it to be a very enlightening and enriching experience to explore it. Of course, I probably only scratched the surface, as ghostchild is even more volumous than Vive - and I know lots of people who avoid Vive for the simple fact that they lose a week of their life every time they set foot in here.<br /> <br /> Cheers, all.. and again, sorry for neglecting this thread for so long.

   

Well lets see now.How could good ol Canada and her people help out the natives?How about RETURNING the land? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'> <br /> Letting them hunt and fish. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> That way no money would have to be spent by the taxpayer. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <br /> Then you would have to find jobs for the folks at Indian Affairs. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> That means immigration would have to be cut,because all the open space would not be available for suburban sprawl,and of course both of the above points are taboo.Hell some folks might even call that racist. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/twisted.gif' alt='Twisted Evil'> <br /> Now if the average Canadian could get off their butt and make do with less this whole country would be better off. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/razz.gif' alt='Razz'> <br /> Then again can you imagine the fear that might put into people <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> ?<br /> If any of you are so inclined you might want to go to Straightgoods.com and read the column by Stewart Steinhauer.He asks a very good question.<br /> Why don't the war protesters protest the ongoing invasion of Turtle Island?<br /> The Natives of this country would love that <br /> <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

   

I dunno, spud... I doubt we'll give the land back til after we've sucked it dry of any useful resource. Once all the animals have been killed and the ground is contaminated with chemicals and only GMO seeds will grow and all waterways are acid mine drainage - THEN we'll graciously return the land to the First Nations. Ain't we the generous type?

   

[QUOTE BY= Spud] Well lets see now.How could good ol Canada and her people help out the natives?How about RETURNING the land? <br /> Letting them hunt and fish. <br /> That way no money would have to be spent by the taxpayer. <br /> Then you would have to find jobs for the folks at Indian Affairs. <br /> That means immigration would have to be cut,because all the open space would not be available for suburban sprawl,and of course both of the above points are taboo.Hell some folks might even call that racist. <br /> Now if the average Canadian could get off their butt and make do with less this whole country would be better off. <br /> Then again can you imagine the fear that might put into people ?<br /> If any of you are so inclined you might want to go to Straightgoods.com and read the column by Stewart Steinhauer.He asks a very good question.<br /> Why don't the war protesters protest the ongoing invasion of Turtle Island?<br /> The Natives of this country would love that <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> You can't be serious. You think most natives want to hunt and fish these days?? We should not give any land back nor should we allow natives to live in Canadians cities.

   

[QUOTE BY= Kory Yamashita] I dunno, spud... I doubt we'll give the land back til after we've sucked it dry of any useful resource. Once all the animals have been killed and the ground is contaminated with chemicals and only GMO seeds will grow and all waterways are acid mine drainage - THEN we'll graciously return the land to the First Nations. Ain't we the generous type?[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> When you say "we" you really mean white Canadians correct? You don't mean Japanese. Or am I wrong?

   

[QUOTE BY= Calumny] Not being facetious here however natives are being cared for by our justice system, in the sense that the number incarcerated in Canada is way of of whack in terms of incarceration percentages for other racial groups.<br /> <br /> The link below is to a report that includes stats on the number (52,390) of Canadian under 18s reported missing/run away in 2002. I believe I saw a report some months back for the U.S. of around 500,000 a year in that nation. <br /> <br /> <a href="http://www.cp.org/survey/STREET-PG-Quark4.pdf">Teenage Runaway</a><br /> <br /> Given these numbers, the lack of an investigation in the matter you describe may related more to the extent of the problem and the resources available to address the same than being of a racial nature.<br /> <br /> Also, how do we know there isn't an investigation going on? If police were investigating a potential serial killer situation, would they necessarily want to publicize the investigation?<br /> <br /> The whole treaty question is I agree a mess.<br /> <br /> Now does any of the above mean I disagree with the points you've made. No, because all are valid.<br /> <br /> My heritage is English/Irish/Scottish (possibly some native way back but, don't know for sure). I grew up in a very multi-cultural area of Toronto. My best friends in youth were for the most part of Chinese heritage.<br /> <br /> During my younger years, I lived and worked closely with native people for a period of time. I gained a great respect for native culture.<br /> <br /> For whatever reason, I found myself in many areas to be more comfortable with eastern and native thought and lifestyle than I ever have western. <br /> <br /> Perhaps due to this, I've always found myself looking at people as people first, rather than as English, French, Chinese, Ojibway people.<br /> <br /> You're right...there has to be respect and trust between races (though, I'd prefer to just say people.). And we need to work together to find solutions that benefit all.<br /> <br /> I look forward to reading more. <br /> <br /> [/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> We corresponded on the issue of diversity earlier. I'm disappointed that you would turn your back on your own countrymen and bow to the liberal establishment's multicultural agenda. We have no time for egalitarians anymore. I too had many Chinese friends. This does not mean we share the same interests politically.<br /> <br /> Go to China and tell them to accept immigrants and then tell them to have "peace between the races" which of course means every mixing with each other.

   

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] This is the problem: we are trying to cure inequality with more inequality. This method has been an historical failure. The whole "you suffered, now we will" idea just doesn't work. If we want to see real equality, the handouts will have to stop; they are just icing over the real issues. People should have the same rights, regardless of race. Inequality will only create jealousy and hatred.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> <br /> It is startling to find someone who can think for themselves. What a refreshing comment.

   

[QUOTE]I do not think the Conservatives and neocons have helped much on this debate so far. They would be quite happy to park them on some iceflow (no handouts needed) and hoping the problem will just go away. The rest can simply "integrate" amongst us all.[/QUOTE]<br /> <br /> No to integration and no to handouts.<br />

   

Perturbed, it's obvious that treating everyone equally is AN answer. However, it's not the only one, and it's one that would result in the forced assimilation of native peoples. Some of them still live in somewhat traditional manners, feeding themselves primarily by hunting/fishing/gathering. And they enjoy it. <br /> <br /> I'm not sure if you were referring to concentration ca... er... "internment" camps with your japanese comment. It's a valid point - the Japanese who suffered in those camps received a large symbollic payout in the '80s. The payout was roughly $20 000, I think - large enough to clearly state remorse at the injustice, but a single payment that does not create depency, and small enough to not give an image of preferential treatment.<br /> <br /> There is, however, a significant legal difference between the Japanese case and the First Nations one. The Japanese all came to Canada of their own free will; the First Nations already possessed this land when the Europeans came. And most Canadian land was never conquered or purchased or in any way negotiated through treaty. Thus, under conventional Western law (and Canadian Law, I might add), the First Nations still hold legal title, at least over most of Western Canada.<br /> <br /> So where does that leave us? We have a system of entitlement, handouts and dependency on those handouts (sounds like a Fed. Lib. scandal). And we need to get to a point where things are resolved, where First Nations can thrive in an environment conducive to traditional ways, or conventional Canadian ways, or some mix of the two. It isn't up to us to define how they live, but it IS up to us to accomodate that choice and to help mend open wounds. (And yes, I mean "us" as in Canadians - I've never left the country). <br /> <br /> One point I think I neglected to clearly make above: I don't agree with this idea of suddenly treating everyone as "equals", as it wholly inequitable to the First Nations. Nor do I believe in the current philosophy of perpetual handouts because of the dependency they create. The solution, in my opinion, is to find some land that the First Nations people can actually use (valuable land to First Nations? What a novel idea!), negotiate a treaty, and move on. And in the process, it would be nice to include ALL the Natives, not just a leader or two. And perhaps the offer of free education and mentorships to give them the opportunity to better manage the resources on their land, in the case that they choose to become MORE integrated with the rest of Canada. (Please note that I'm a proponent of universal free post-secondary education).<br /> <br /> Anyways, there are some thoughts. Any comments?

   

Sounds pretty darn good to me. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'> <br /> What would be wrong if Canada had Natives living a traditional life? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> Be kinda cool I think.It certainly did them well for thousands of years,why wouldn't it work now?There is more to life then a big house and a SUV. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/rolleyes.gif' alt='Rolling Eyes'> <br /> The rest of the country could certainly learn a lot from them. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

   

Spud, the problem is that the traditional Native community structure doesn't really work within the framework of our European-based federal system. To take one example, the lifestyle of North-Western First Nations was traditionally based on such an abundance of food that they could be hunter gatherers, while still living in permanent settlements. With others competing for those same resources, that lifestyle is obviously threatened. And the prevailing capitalist model has a long reach indeed.<br /> <br /> Or another perspective: many Native tribes would expel someone who failed to follow common rules. That person would then be forced to fend for themselves or to come to terms with the rules and thus be allowed to re-enter his/her community. This whole concept is based on forcing people to take responsibility for their actions, and it only works in a community where everyone knows one another. If such a policy were practiced now, all those who couldn't come to terms with living a productive life would leave their tribes and end up in cities, where it is easy to be anonymous, break rules, and to never be caught at it.<br /> <br /> I feel like I'm arguing with myself here...

   

I do that all the time.<br /> But you are making sense. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

   

" ...it only works in a community where everyone knows one another. If such a policy were practiced now, all those who couldn't come to terms with living a productive life would leave their tribes and end up in cities, where it is easy to be anonymous, break rules, and to never be caught at it."<br /> <br /> I always have trouble with "only" think.<br /> modifications and adaptations can and must be applied to suit the times.<br /> I spot a non sequituer within the balance I site above.<br /> not a pissing contest , food for thought.<br /> Dio

   

Diogenes, you might be right that perhaps expulsion can work in a community or society in which people don't know one another. At least, it works for the community expelling someone. But then the offending individual just moves on to the next community/society and breaks rules there until he/she is caught. The anonymity gives chronic offenders the opportunity to blend in for a significant period of time before being expelled.<br /> <br /> Perhaps I was wrong to use the word "only". My point, though, was that such a model doesn't work within the larger framework of anonymous societies.

   

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