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[QUOTE BY= lesouris] [QUOTE BY= mac/dief] I never like to give up on a fight, but even I know when something becomes such a lost cause that its only a waste of time, energy and resources to keep fighting it. I do not blame all of the important opponents of SSM (like Stephen Harper of the Conservatives, Pat O'Brien of the Liberals and that one New Democrat) for opposing a referendum, it would be stupid. Yes there is a significant chance that our side would win, but even if we did beat it, it will most likely come back as an issue in 10 or 20 years to haunt us again. As Im sure it will in Australia. <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I think a referendum would have had major reprecussions for Canadian unity anyway. I mean, we have one province (Quebec) that is overwhelmingly pro-SSM, and one province (Alberta) that is overwhelmingly anti-SSM. Since both these provinces claim to be the most alienated most often, whoever wins, we would all loose. I think it was a very good idea to avoid a referendum for this reason alone, not to mention the whole tyranny of the majority thing. I mean, it would've been nice to know that my country supported me and my relationships as as legitimate as any straight relationship, but if the majority of Candians don't, I don't care, it's my life and my choice.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Look regardless of how much leftwingers and social-libertarians want to start redefining Canada as a 100% non-sectarian nation, the fact of the matter is is that most Canadians do still consider their nation to be Christian, but hey what do we know? Anyway dont feel bad that we didnt support you, the vast majority of Canadians including myself were quite supportive of same-sex unions with equal rights, and no it wasnt to postpone the issue further! <br /> <br />You are COMPLETELY right in regards to holding a referendum, Quebec would see results like 70 or 80% in favour, Alberta the exact opposite and provinces that are more evenly divided like Ontario or the maritime provinces would become battlegrounds! It wouldnt solve anything, but they what does Ralph Klein know about national unity, right? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'>

   

[QUOTE BY= mac/dief]Look regardless of how much leftwingers and social-libertarians want to start redefining Canada as a 100% non-sectarian nation, the fact of the matter is is that most Canadians do still consider their nation to be Christian, but hey what do we know? Anyway dont feel bad that we didnt support you, the vast majority of Canadians including myself were quite supportive of same-sex unions with equal rights, and no it wasnt to postpone the issue further![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I think we all see Canada through our own custom lenses, whereas you would see our country as a Christian nation, I see it as a secular nation with historical Christian tendencies redefined by cultural revolutions in Quebec and in English Canada (the Quiet Revolution often overshadows the less discussed "Urban Revolution" when Canadians moved en masse to the cities and began embrassing Multiculturalism and Religious Plurality). So we all have our own views on Canada, and we can all make our own conclusions from statistics and be content with that. I think this might be one reason why the "Canadian Identity" has been so elusive - we all have our own. So sometimes we will not agree on some issues, and that's great! It's a sign our democracy is working. <br /> <br />As for same-sex unions with equal status to opposite-sex marriages, I find that just strange. I mean, there's an old saying "If it looks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, then it's probably a duck" - so if it looks like marriage, and it's exactly like marriage, it's marriage, and pretending it's not when it clearly is is pointless. Now I realize some straight people feel like marriage should be exclusively theirs, and I personally feel that's a very elitist attitude. I mean, would you all feel better if we just called it marriage, but used a different language, like we just called it Ehe, Ægteskab, Matrimonio, Mariage, Huwelijk, or Małżeństwo? <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= mac/dief]You are COMPLETELY right in regards to holding a referendum, Quebec would see results like 70 or 80% in favour, Alberta the exact opposite and provinces that are more evenly divided like Ontario or the maritime provinces would become battlegrounds! It wouldnt solve anything, but they what does Ralph Klein know about national unity, right? <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/mrgreen.gif' alt='Mr. Green'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yeah, I think Ontario would probably be evenly divided too: half would vote, half wouldn't. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'>

   

Good come back <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'> , but seriously it's hard to say that Canada is not a Christian nation in anyway when you take a look at Canadian history and the influence that Christian faiths both Catholic and Protestant have had on most of our political institutions, or the fact that since we became a nation the vast majority of our population have always been Christian.

   

I cannot believe that after over 100 replies, this thread is still mostly on topic. wow. That says a lot for the quality of discussion going on here. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/smile.gif' alt='Smile'>

   

yeah actually thats true, lol. Especially when you compare this debate to the debates between federalists and seperatists that have occured on this forum! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'>

   

[QUOTE BY= mac/dief] yeah actually thats true, lol. Especially when you compare this debate to the debates between federalists and seperatists that have occured on this forum! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/eek.gif' alt='Eek!'> [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />It just goes to show that gay marriage as an issue is much less controversial than separatism/nationalism among vive users, and probably among the population at large.

   

[QUOTE BY= mac/dief] Good come back <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'> , but seriously it's hard to say that Canada is not a Christian nation in anyway when you take a look at Canadian history and the influence that Christian faiths both Catholic and Protestant have had on most of our political institutions, or the fact that since we became a nation the vast majority of our population have always been Christian. [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Well, when Canada was still mainly are completely aboriginal, the majority of Canadians weren't Christians (I admit this is an anachronism). But think about it in comparison with other nations; most people would agree France is a pretty secular nation although it has a very Christian past. Admittedly France's version of secularism, or Laïcité, is not compatible with Canada's multiculturalism (take for instance the French law on secularity and conspicuous religious symbols in schools), but Canada has also redefined itself as a secular nation. <br /> <br />These are some reasons why I feel Canada is a secular nation: <br />1. Canada has no established Church or official religion. <br />2. There is complete freedom of religion as established in the Charter of Rights and Freedoms <br />3. Religion is mainly considered out of place in politics (remember when Stockwell Day refused to campaign on Sundays - most people thought it was a joke). <br />4. Religion is excluded our minimized in the public sphere (it is considered a private aspect of a person's life). <br />5. Religion is not as important in people's lives as it once was. <br />6. No religion or religious denomination makes up a majority of the citizenry (unless you consider Christianity to be a unified religion, which is debatable considering that it would be rather tough governing the country as a Christian one when there are so many contradictory patterns within Christianity as a whole, and even then, many Christians in Canada are non-practicing). <br /> <br />Now Canada may have a few official Christian symbols (the flag of Quebec and the royal and national anthems for instance), but that doesn't really mean anything anymore, because all they really are are symbols of a past we have grown out of. <br /> <br />There are a few things I would change if I could about Canada to make it more secular, such as: <br />-abolishment of publicly funded religious schools (most provinces already have, Ontario has not) <br />-change the official names of statutory holidays like Christmas, Good Friday, and Easter into more secular versions (i.e. Winter Holiday, Spring Holiday Friday, et cetera), of course people would still call them Christmas and Easter and so on. <br />-remove the reference to God from the Constitution and Anthems <br />-scrap the Settlement Act of 1707 (the one that says only Protestant descendents of Sophia, Electress of Hanover, can take the throne)

   

No we have not gotten rid of Roman cAtholic schooling here in Ontario, nor should we ever. Ive actually been having a heated debate in my local paper, with an Anti-Catholic resident defending publicaly funded Catholic education. The fact of the matter is is that Roman Catholics are the single largest denomination in Canada, and make up to close of half the population in Ontario. The government has a duty to provide working and lower class Catholic families the right to give their children a Christian education. I know that Quebec went through a whole period under Lesage of seperating church and state and therefor creating only secular schools, but that has never been needed in Ontario since church and state became effectively seperated after George Drew left office. <br /> <br />Bill Davis, our province's greatest Premier as far as Im concerned created publically funded Catholic schools to give average Catholic Ontarians the opportunity to educate their children in their faith, which is the least he could have done since prayer has now been banned entirely from even being said in public schools! <br />Is there any strong demand for Ontario to go the root of Quebec and Newfoundland right now? No! Do I think we should? Absolutely Not! <br /> <br />In regards to you wanting to change what we officially call Christmas and Easter, you can go to hell. Its called Christmas because it is a Christian holiday where we celebrate the birth of our lord and savour Jesus Christ, we dont celebrate some guy named X, which is why it is blasphemy to call it X-Mas! The reason why we have Christian holidays as our major holidays is because as I said the VAST majority of Canadians are Christian and have been since we became a nation, Im sure that if you checked today you'd find that the majority of Canadian Aboriginals today are mostly Christian! <br /> <br />You might be right that the majority probably are not practising, but there is a BIG difference between practising and believing, and I would say that the vast majority are definately believing. People do not call themselves Christians unles they believe in Christ, plain and simple. I dont even go to church most Sundays myself because I always work, but I still believe in God and Christ, so I am a believing Christian. You ahve no right to try and hijack Christian holidays or change their name and purpose, I thank God that I've enver heard that suggestion from anybody else or else I'd start to get scared. <br /> <br />We are multicultural, meaning we tolerate other cultures and religions besides our own, but that does not mean that we should stop recognizing parts of our culture and religion entirely. We allow for followers of other faiths to take time off during their religious holidays, but Christian holidays are recognized as official because Canada since being from English and French colonialism to present nation hood has always been a Christian nation. Only a fool would think that that means that Canada is only for Christians, it simply means that most Canadians are Christian and that many of our institutions, customs and laws are inspired by Christian values, which yes happens to be very true. Even the founder of Medicare was a Baptist preacher!

   

[QUOTE BY= jvanherk] <br />It just goes to show that gay marriage as an issue is much less controversial than separatism/nationalism among vive users, and probably among the population at large.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I don't see what all the fuss is about. If a gay man wants to marry a lesbian woman, I'm all for that. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> <br /> <br />*ducks inbound tomatoe* <br /> <br />

   

[QUOTE BY= mac/dief] No we have not gotten rid of Roman cAtholic schooling here in Ontario, nor should we ever. Ive actually been having a heated debate in my local paper, with an Anti-Catholic resident defending publicaly funded Catholic education. The fact of the matter is is that Roman Catholics are the single largest denomination in Canada, and make up to close of half the population in Ontario. The government has a duty to provide working and lower class Catholic families the right to give their children a Christian education. I know that Quebec went through a whole period under Lesage of seperating church and state and therefor creating only secular schools, but that has never been needed in Ontario since church and state became effectively seperated after George Drew left office. <br /> <br />Bill Davis, our province's greatest Premier as far as Im concerned created publically funded Catholic schools to give average Catholic Ontarians the opportunity to educate their children in their faith, which is the least he could have done since prayer has now been banned entirely from even being said in public schools! <br />Is there any strong demand for Ontario to go the root of Quebec and Newfoundland right now? No! Do I think we should? Absolutely Not![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I went to a Catholic elementary and high school, and they are not fair for students at all. I think it is a shame that to graduate from a Catholic high school you need four religion credits, but only one history and one french credit. What I remember form school was that religion class was basically misinformation about birth control, abortion, AIDS, and how great we all were because we were Catholic (things along the lines of "Well, the Spanish Inquisition wasn't that bad..."). Is it fair that followers of other religions have to privately pay for their own religious education in addition to funding public schooling? No it isn't, and it doesn't matter how many Catholics live in Ontario, it will never be fair unless all denominational schools are covered publically. I mean, if we're doing this with schools, why not do it to hospitals to? Why don't we have Catholic hospitals and Public hospitals? Hell, why don't we just have a Catholic CBC too? <br /> <br />Separate Catholic schooling was created because of an election promise when Ontario was still in the throws of sectarian division between descendants of Irish Catholics and descendants of British Protestants (many of whom were in the Orange Order). The only publicly-funded schooling available at this time was Protestant. This is no longer the case. <br /> <br />BTW "Anti-Catholic" is term used by Catholic officials to describe any person who has any negative opinion about the Catholic Church (as an organization) or its policies much the same way that Anti-Americanism is used to describe any person with a negative opinion of the US government or its policies. These terms are meant to mislead Catholics or Americans into believing anyone against the Church or Government are against every individual Catholic or American. This is ridiculous. <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= mac/dief]In regards to you wanting to change what we officially call Christmas and Easter, you can go to hell. Its called Christmas because it is a Christian holiday where we celebrate the birth of our lord and savour Jesus Christ, we dont celebrate some guy named X, which is why it is blasphemy to call it X-Mas! The reason why we have Christian holidays as our major holidays is because as I said the VAST majority of Canadians are Christian and have been since we became a nation, Im sure that if you checked today you'd find that the majority of Canadian Aboriginals today are mostly Christian! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Actually the X in X-mas comes from the Greek letter Chi (which looks like an X). This is the first letter in the Greek word Χριστóς (Khristós), the word from which Christ is derived. "X" eventually became a symbol for "Christ" in Greek and Latin texts, hence "Xmas" or "X-mas". This is not at all an athiestic or anti-Jesus term. <br /> <br />The only reason I suggest changing the names of the holidays is because many non-Christians feel that they are being forced to celebrate Christian holidays because they are also statutory holidays. I know that it would be impossible to just eliminate these holidays, so why not just compromise and change the names into something a little more inclusive? <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= mac/dief]We are multicultural, meaning we tolerate other cultures and religions besides our own, but that does not mean that we should stop recognizing parts of our culture and religion entirely. We allow for followers of other faiths to take time off during their religious holidays, but Christian holidays are recognized as official because Canada since being from English and French colonialism to present nation hood has always been a Christian nation. Only a fool would think that that means that Canada is only for Christians, it simply means that most Canadians are Christian and that many of our institutions, customs and laws are inspired by Christian values, which yes happens to be very true. Even the founder of Medicare was a Baptist preacher! [/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Is tolerating other religions and cultures enough though? Are we unprepared to take the next step in making our nation truley multicultural? We must embrace each other, our cultures, and our religions. How would you feel if you got to a country and they said you were a second class citizen because you didnt't fit in with the majority? Religion and culture shouldn't be lines along which we divide ourselves, they should be lines across of which we reach out and experience all the wonderful and diverse aspects of human culture. <br /> <br />The fouder of medicare was a baptist minister, and he was a great man, but that doesn't mean our nation is a Christian nation any more than saying that because the first people who came to Canada believed in Animism that we are an animistic nation, or that because the first Europeans who came to Canada believed in Norse mythology that this is an Ásatrú nation. The past is the past, the future shall bring change. I mean, the fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam, and the fastest growing religion by way of conversion is Neo-Paganism, more people are living their lives with personally tailored religions or religious beliefs, and less and less people are maintaining strict religious directives. For example, you yourself mac/Dief have said that you are for a separate but equal form of SSM, hardly in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Religion is going through a metamorphosis in Canada and pretty soon, Christians will not make up a majority of Canadians, and among Christians, many people will not conform to the old denominations. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion, but we must be ready to cope with this new society.

   

[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br />I went to a Catholic elementary and high school, and they are not fair for students at all. I think it is a shame that to graduate from a Catholic high school you need four religion credits, but only one history and one french credit. What I remember form school was that religion class was basically misinformation about birth control, abortion, AIDS, and how great we all were because we were Catholic (things along the lines of "Well, the Spanish Inquisition wasn't that bad..."). Is it fair that followers of other religions have to privately pay for their own religious education in addition to funding public schooling? No it isn't, and it doesn't matter how many Catholics live in Ontario, it will never be fair unless all denominational schools are covered publically. I mean, if we're doing this with schools, why not do it to hospitals to? Why don't we have Catholic hospitals and Public hospitals? Hell, why don't we just have a Catholic CBC too? <br /> <br />Separate Catholic schooling was created because of an election promise when Ontario was still in the throws of sectarian division between descendants of Irish Catholics and descendants of British Protestants (many of whom were in the Orange Order). The only publicly-funded schooling available at this time was Protestant. This is no longer the case. <br /> <br />BTW "Anti-Catholic" is term used by Catholic officials to describe any person who has any negative opinion about the Catholic Church (as an organization) or its policies much the same way that Anti-Americanism is used to describe any person with a negative opinion of the US government or its policies. These terms are meant to mislead Catholics or Americans into believing anyone against the Church or Government are against every individual Catholic or American. This is ridiculous. <br /> <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> Well when it comes right down to it with all of the leftwing "education" in favour of abortion being crammed down the throats of our young people today, I think that its only fair for kids to hear the other side of the argument. In respect to birth control and AIDS yes in many ways the Catholic Church's teachings are out of date, but things change and are in the process of changing in the church today with more and more of the clergy calling for new policies! Its not unfair at all, parents send their children to Catholic schools because they want them to have a CATHOLIC education, period, so of course they should take four religion classes. If they decide to make the choice when their older that religion, or Catholicism in particular are not for them, than fine thats their choice. But every parent has the right to ensure that their children are raised the way they want them to be! <br /> <br />I have no clue what type of Roman Catholic school you went too, but in the four Catholic schools (elementary and secondary) that I went to as a kid I was NEVER taught that the Spanish Insquisition "wasn't that bad", quite the opposite I remember in elementary school and Grade 9 we were taught quite indepthly regarding tragedies like the Holocaust, the Rwanda genocide and the ethnic cleansing in Kosovo. And you're right at least on one thing, other denominational schools should be covered, however not posh prep schools as Jim Flaherty wanted. <br /> <br />No publically funded Catholic schooling was not created during a time when Ontario was still in the throws of Irish and French Catholic and English and Scottish Protestant tensions it was actually created in the late 1980s, more than half a century after those sectarian and ethnic tensions had died out! I do not know where you're going with splitting the CBC and hospitals along sectarian lines, they are not related to education in any way. Parents ahve the right to have their children educated in whatever way they see fit, Catholics by far make up the largest denomination (and to tell you the truth neither of us will live to see a day when Christians are a minority) and the vast majority of Catholic families would never be able to afford to send their kids to private Catholic schools if they were not publically funded. And public schools today do not teach morality at all, as a matter of fact they have strictly abolished freedom of worship on their school grounds! When I start a family, again I am not a fundementalist or even a religious conservative, but I will NEVER send my kids to a public elementary school, EVER! <br /> <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> <br />The only reason I suggest changing the names of the holidays is because many non-Christians feel that they are being forced to celebrate Christian holidays because they are also statutory holidays. I know that it would be impossible to just eliminate these holidays, so why not just compromise and change the names into something a little more inclusive? <br /> <br />[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Those holdiays where never meant to be a-religious, if you only celebrate Christmas to get presents and take a day off work than fine thats you're business, call it winter break if you want, or even Present Day for all I care. But you can not change what it is, nor should you. The majority of Canadians celebrate Christmas as a Christian holiday, thats what it is, thats what is always has been and thats what it should always remain. If you want to call you're unions marriages so you feel you have equal status to heterosexual couples than fine, but you cannot try and erase Christianity as the religion of Canada, ever! <br /> <br />[QUOTE BY= lesouris] <br /> <br />Is tolerating other religions and cultures enough though? Are we unprepared to take the next step in making our nation truley multicultural? We must embrace each other, our cultures, and our religions. How would you feel if you got to a country and they said you were a second class citizen because you didnt't fit in with the majority? Religion and culture shouldn't be lines along which we divide ourselves, they should be lines across of which we reach out and experience all the wonderful and diverse aspects of human culture. <br /> <br />The fouder of medicare was a baptist minister, and he was a great man, but that doesn't mean our nation is a Christian nation any more than saying that because the first people who came to Canada believed in Animism that we are an animistic nation, or that because the first Europeans who came to Canada believed in Norse mythology that this is an Ásatrú nation. The past is the past, the future shall bring change. I mean, the fastest growing religion in Canada is Islam, and the fastest growing religion by way of conversion is Neo-Paganism, more people are living their lives with personally tailored religions or religious beliefs, and less and less people are maintaining strict religious directives. For example, you yourself mac/Dief have said that you are for a separate but equal form of SSM, hardly in line with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Religion is going through a metamorphosis in Canada and pretty soon, Christians will not make up a majority of Canadians, and among Christians, many people will not conform to the old denominations. Whether this is good or bad is a matter of opinion, but we must be ready to cope with this new society.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes toleration of other cultures is enough!!!! It is one thing to make new comers feel welcome, but when a government stops encouraging and promoting the culture of it's own nation than that culture dies out, end of story! That must never happen to Canada, mutliculturalism was created to help immigrants feel comfortable in Canada, it was not created to erase Canada's culture, customs or history or make us some culture-less, soul-less, leftwing, political entity, we are a nation, we are not the U.N. <br /> <br />We give followers of other religions their own hildays, as well as Christian holidays off as paid vacations, that is more than generous and tolerant. For us to try and erase the true meanings of our Christian holidays would be a horrible crime! Religion in society is changing as it has been I would since the end of the 2nd World War, but that does not mean that it is becoming less important in peoples lives. As I said before a non-practising Christian (or Muslim, Budhist, Hindu, Jew, Voodoo shaman, whatever) is not necassarily a non-believer! <br /> <br />Societies always change, but somethings like the way Canada was formed, our shared values, our HISTORY, and customs will never change. Nations can last for thousands of years, some cultures have been around since the beggining of humanity, and I see no reason to believe that Canada won't last for thousands of years either. <br /> <br />The people who formed this nation and who have made up the vast majority since it became a nation where Christians, thats what makes us Christian. Im not saying that the displacement of Aboriginals was right and it is time that we came to terms with what we did to them and work to make their nations self sufficient once again, BUT that does not mean that the nation which was created is a bad one or should have never existed. All nations are usually formed on bloodshed, but that does not mean that great societies are never established in them. Islam might be the fastest growing religion in the world, but Christianity isn't shrinking and is still growing at a pretty steady rate itself. Will we ever see a nation where "wiccas" or "born-again" Muslims outnumber Christians? No, <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/lol.gif' alt='Laughing Out Loud'>

   

BTW - I when I told you to go to hell, that was just a bad reaction to what you had said, it was nothing personal <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cool.gif' alt='Cool'>

   

Maybe we should just agree to disagree mac/dief, because we're just going to keep going on and on saying the same things over and over again. We obviously have different views on what Canada, multiculturalism, and the separation of Church and State mean, and we're not going to convince each other otherwise. <br /> <br />I think our different opinions of Catholic schools can probably be attributed to our experiences at these schools. I was the gay guy people beat up, made fun of, and made my life a living hell; who were you? <br /> <br />

   

[QUOTE BY= lesouris]I think our different opinions of Catholic schools can probably be attributed to our experiences at these schools. I was the gay guy people beat up, made fun of, and made my life a living hell; who were you?[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />You know, it's isnt a caracteristic of the catholic school... i've been in a catholic school for one year and it wasnt so bad. <br /> <br />in my old public school (so non-catholic) i was the lesbian girl people beat up, made fun of, and made my life a living hell. should we close those too ?

   

Thanx Cathou, <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/wink.gif' alt='Wink'> I was a HUGE slacker, but I never beat anybody up, thats for sure!!! When I was young, about 12 I read the Communist Manifesto and other works by Marx, Lenin, Stalin, Mao and even Hoxha and became a radical Communist, so obviously I turned completely anti-religion, but when I became a little bit older I started to see the more positive side of Christianity again and I started to rethink a lot of my views. <br /> <br />There were times, a few not many when I disagreed with my teacher's views or what they said, but to tell you the truth I found more times when my teacher's where ignorant in public school than in Catholic school.

   

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