Mission improbable? Economists want GST charged on food
Lemmy @ Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:15 pm
andyt andyt:
So you would implement this idea with no cushioning for low income people?
You mean with no ADDITIONAL cushioning? I'd make the cushioning elsewhere, in the form of a rebate, negative income tax, whatever. Keep the consumption tax broad and low rather than restrictive and high. Make it up to poor people in other ways. If we had a negative income tax, we wouldn't have to worry about consumption tax exemptions, minimum wages, rent controls and a host of other well-meaning economic policies that create more problems than they fix.
andyt @ Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:18 pm
A rebate is what they get now. The argument is that with the rebate and the fact low income people spend most of their money on food and rent, they actually come out ahead under the HST scheme. For that to remain valid with taxes on food, they'd have to up that rebate.
Negative income tax sounds so nice. Except it also sounds like a subsidy to employers. Pay your people a shit wage and the govt will make up the diff. How do you prevent that?
Lemmy @ Fri Feb 24, 2012 12:27 pm
andyt andyt:
Negative income tax sounds so nice. Except it also sounds like a subsidy to employers. Pay your people a shit wage and the govt will make up the diff. How do you prevent that?
Businesses already write off their labour costs as a business expense. If the wage rate goes from $11/hr to $8, the business pays $3 less per hour but also gets $3/hr less of a tax write-off. It'd be no more of a business subsidy than the tax codes already give them.
But, you could give the negative income tax a shelf-life. Use it as an incentive to get better employment or lose the benefit. We're drifting off topic, so I'll stand down.
sandorski @ Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:21 pm
Food isn't Taxed for a reason.
BartSimpson @ Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:23 pm
andyt andyt:
You should love this idea, Bart. They'll raise a regressive tax and use it to lower progressive ones. Right up your alley.
Actually the Scandinavian states, my heros, have very high VAT. But somehow they manage to do that and have very little poverty and a very high standard of living. So there certainly is a way to do this right. But this is Canada.
Actually the Scandinavian states, my heros, have very high VAT. But somehow they manage to do that and have very little poverty and a very high standard of living. So there certainly is a way to do this right. But this is Canada.
Muslim immigration is fixing the low Scandinavian poverty rate, their low infant mortality rate, and their low violent crime rates, too, so don't be too jealous of them.
BartSimpson @ Fri Feb 24, 2012 1:25 pm
sandorski sandorski:
Food isn't Taxed for a reason.
I so agree with you. To me levying a tax on food is one of the utmost of immoral crimes.
andyt @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 9:51 am
Looks like the economists actually get it:
$1:
On food, the economists commend the attempt to shelter lower-income Canadians from being taxed, but say a more efficient way of accomplishing the feat would be to increase the GST tax credit.
By excluding food in general, they say, more affluent Canadians are actually deriving a greater benefit than the poor.
"Rich households also benefit from zero-rating, so that from a social policy objective much of the associated tax expenditure is wasted on the rich," Smart's paper concludes.
By excluding food in general, they say, more affluent Canadians are actually deriving a greater benefit than the poor.
"Rich households also benefit from zero-rating, so that from a social policy objective much of the associated tax expenditure is wasted on the rich," Smart's paper concludes.
Yogi @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:02 am
This would do more to drive the economy underground than anything else to date. I can, and have, already bought a lot of food 'cash to producer'. Beef, chicken, pork, eggs, produce, milk, etc. Although so far, only periodically, I could sure 'step it up' in a hurry. It's a lot better than the 'packaged preservative' shit that's available in the stores anyway!
andyt @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:04 am
I'm sure you can Yogi. You're not representative of Canada as a whole.
What kills me is buy 1 bagel, pay tax. Buy 6, no tax.
Yogi @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:14 am
andyt andyt:
I'm sure you can Yogi. You're not representative of Canada as a whole.
What kills me is buy 1 bagel, pay tax. Buy 6, no tax.
What kills me is buy 1 bagel, pay tax. Buy 6, no tax.
No, I'm not. Yet!
herbie @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 10:23 am
And like those eager GST beavers charging people not remitting GST from yard sales, they could calculate that a $1.19 package of seeds yields 25 lbs of peppers @ last year's market price of $3.99 lb = $5.06 GST on $1.19 worth of seeds.
You know, to get those cheaters who try to dodge taxes by growing their own food.
Nah, they'd never do that. They never put me through a 2 year ordeal that took notarized affadavits to prove a 20 yr old 14 ft boat assessed with $4,000 GST plus penalties was inaccurate. The $54 they 'graciously accepted' was still double the tax on what I paid.
Lemmy @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:16 am
andyt andyt:
What kills me is buy 1 bagel, pay tax. Buy 6, no tax.
Another example of why consumption taxes should be on everything at a low rate rather than on select items at a higher rate.
saturn_656 @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:23 am
Lemmy Lemmy:
andyt andyt:
What kills me is buy 1 bagel, pay tax. Buy 6, no tax.
Another example of why consumption taxes should be on everything at a low rate rather than on select items at a higher rate.
An idea I could get behind, if that is what the government actually intended to do.
What I see realistically happening is the HST going on food at 13% (in Ontario anyway) and the government handing out a few more income tax deductions for lower income earners and bigger rebate checks.
The rest of us? Get ready to pay out the nose on your grocery bill, like we did when the government decided to tax hydro and home heat (essential services) at 13% rather than 5%.
Lemmy @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:27 am
Yup. But given where gasoline prices are headed, we're likely not going to be hearing so much about food prices over the next little while.
andyt @ Sat Feb 25, 2012 11:28 am
saturn_656 saturn_656:
Lemmy Lemmy:
andyt andyt:
What kills me is buy 1 bagel, pay tax. Buy 6, no tax.
Another example of why consumption taxes should be on everything at a low rate rather than on select items at a higher rate.
An idea I could get behind, if that is what the government actually intended to do.
What I see realistically happening is the HST going on food at 13% (in Ontario anyway) and the government handing out a few more income tax deductions for lower income earners and bigger rebate checks.
The rest of us? Get ready to pay out the nose on your grocery bill, like we did when the government decided to tax hydro and home heat (essential services) at 13% rather than 5%.
You didn't hear of Drummond's report? You guys need to way cut spending or raise taxes, likely both. And the same guys that squawk about the taxes scream bloody murder when their little government handout is taken away. It's always about somebody else.
This is about the GST - federal.
$1:
By eliminating the exemptions such as medicines, books, financial services, tuition and especially food, governments could reap an additional $39 billion in revenue annually — about 60 per cent more than they do now.
Of course they'd have to forgo some to rebate the low income people, but that ain't chump change.