Ontario announces Windsor-Toronto High-Speed Rail line
BartSimpson @ Fri May 19, 2017 1:20 pm
Just looking at it I don't see where the ridership is going to come from to justify $20bn in spending and then whatever subsidies are required to follow.
I like HSR in some places but between major cities. It doesn't make sense with Windsor as a terminus/destination.
Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, sure. But Windsor?
BeaverFever @ Fri May 19, 2017 2:57 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I like HSR in some places but between major cities. It doesn't make sense with Windsor as a terminus/destination.
Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, sure. But Windsor?
Yeah I'm kind of thinking the same thing. Usually the T-O-M is the corridor they're talking about for HSR. I believe I read somewhere it's the most lucrative air route in Canada as well. I'm wondering why they don't want to go there first.
Tricks @ Fri May 19, 2017 3:00 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I like HSR in some places but between major cities. It doesn't make sense with Windsor as a terminus/destination.
Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, sure. But Windsor?
Yeah I'm kind of thinking the same thing. Usually the T-O-M is the corridor they're talking about for HSR. I believe I read somewhere it's the most lucrative air route in Canada as well. I'm wondering why they don't want to go there first.
Quebec not wanting to play ball?
CDN_PATRIOT @ Fri May 19, 2017 3:09 pm
martin14 martin14:
Mark this page I will proven correct. 
And BF will be daily proven as a Liberal hack.
And BF will be daily proven as a Liberal hack.
The Ontario Liberals poison everything they touch, and I do believe you will be proven right. While I am personally hopeful that one day we'll get proper high-speed rail, it will never work properly as long as Liberals run the province. But don't tell BF any of this, because the truth hurts so bad, he might end up in the hospital. How 'bout those wait times. eh? Oh wait....won't get treatment, because the power will go out due to skyrocketing hydro rates and such.
-J.
BeaverFever @ Fri May 19, 2017 3:59 pm
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
martin14 martin14:
Mark this page I will proven correct.
And BF will be daily proven as a Liberal hack.
And BF will be daily proven as a Liberal hack.
The Ontario Liberals poison everything they touch, and I do believe you will be proven right. While I am personally hopeful that one day we'll get proper high-speed rail, it will never work properly as long as Liberals run the province. But don't tell BF any of this, because the truth hurts so bad, he might end up in the hospital. How 'bout those wait times. eh? Oh wait....won't get treatment, because the power will go out due to skyrocketing hydro rates and such.
-J.
Another empty trolling post.
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
N_Fiddledog @ Fri May 19, 2017 4:00 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
martin14 martin14:
Complete waste of money, but I'm sure the Liberals and friends will be able to steal a couple of billion from it, and then the Liberal gov't can put more taxes on, to help pay for all the cost overruns, breakdowns, corruption, and the fact that the trains will
never run at a profit.
never run at a profit.
You've just described every other rail project in North America. No reason why this one should be any different.
Come to think of it, you would know whereof you speak...California, right?
2016
$1:
California's high-speed rail project increasingly looks like an expensive social science experiment to test just how long interest groups can keep money flowing to a doomed endeavor before elected officials finally decide to cancel it. What combination of sweet-sounding scenarios, streamlined mockups, ever-changing and mind-numbing technical detail, and audacious spin will keep the dream alive?
2017
$1:
SACRAMENTO — The first stage of California’s costly high-speed rail project may be even more expensive — $3.6 billion more — than previously thought, according to a report prepared by the Federal Railroad Administration and reported by the Los Angeles Times.
BartSimpson @ Fri May 19, 2017 4:41 pm
N_Fiddledog N_Fiddledog:
Come to think of it, you would know whereof you speak...California, right?
Yes, I do.
Our HSR project was proposed to the voters as a $9bn project between San Francisco and Los Angeles.
The original proposed route would have run mostly parallel to Interstate Five on state owned (and free) property. It would have been a direct route and there was the potential for a ninety-minute commute between San Francisco and Union Station in LA.
So we voted it in. I voted for it, too because it made sense.
Then the CA HSR Authority took over.
The original route is in red. The new route is in blue.
File comment: HSR
HSR.PNG [ 249.64 KiB | Viewed 1007 times ]
The new route is longer. The ninety-minute direct express trip is now a two-to-three hour trip with numerous stops along the way. There won't be any express train because that would 'offend' people in the Central Valley.
The new route is also costlier. That's because it crosses a whole lot of farmland in the valley that's owned by Democrat legislators and their patrons and then it crosses a whole lot of previously worthless desert land that's owned by Democrat legislators and their patrons.
The new route will require as much as thirty eight miles of tunnels through some of the most difficult and seismically dangerous geology in North America. The old route didn't need any tunnels.
And the price? Yeah that $9bn pricetag we were promised is now optimistically pegged around $68bn and even the State Budget Analyst says it's going to be closer to $200bn by the time it's finished.
Now you want to know what's worse?
Before the fucking Democrats took action to stop them a French consortium was going to build the whole thing at their own cost, operate it for fifty years, and then hand it over to the state.
It also was supposed to be operational by now. It probably would have been, too.
But where's the graft in that?
CDN_PATRIOT @ Fri May 19, 2017 6:15 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
Wait times haven't improved under ANY government! It took SIX HOURS for my mother to get looked at in the ER at the local hospital for her chronic pain condition, and it still takes FOUR HOURS of wait time for me in a walk-in clinic just to get antibiotics for my bronchitis (when I have it), not to mention anything else that people are in there for.
You are living in a complete fantasy world if you think wait times and/or health care a whole have improved. You are so brainwashed by the Liberal machine that Wynne and/or Trudeau could convince you that your father is a turnip, and you'd buy it without hesitation.
Instead of being just another hack, take your head out of your ass long enough to really see the sad state our Province is in. Go out there and see for yourself instead of quoting party bullshit. Any half-brained lab rat could do that.
This province has gone down the toilet, and all you left-wingers do is beg for more.
-J.
BeaverFever @ Fri May 19, 2017 6:53 pm
Tricks Tricks:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
I like HSR in some places but between major cities. It doesn't make sense with Windsor as a terminus/destination.
Toronto to Ottawa or Montreal, sure. But Windsor?
Yeah I'm kind of thinking the same thing. Usually the T-O-M is the corridor they're talking about for HSR. I believe I read somewhere it's the most lucrative air route in Canada as well. I'm wondering why they don't want to go there first.
Quebec not wanting to play ball?
Well this was a provincial pitch so I wouldn't expect it to include Quebec but when the feds dabble in this area, they seem to have putched TOM or TOMQ or even Windsor to QC.
For a provincial project I would have expected TO to Ottawa, with an extension to Montreal and/or QC eventually coming about some years afterwards through an eventual agreement with the feds and/or or Quebec.
Western Ontario is pretty rural and these cities that are linking up on this rail line are pretty much islands unto themselves and there's not much of a tourist destination out there ; I don't know any Torontonians who go out that way except for people who have relatives living out there.
As I try to think about the logic of this route:
Guelph and Chatham each have just over 100k people, Kitchener-Waterloo has about 200k, and London and Windsor each have >300k populations. Except for Chatham, the other 4 cities have very large major universities; London is apparently where most of Canadas insurance companies are headquartered and KW of course is where Blackberry (or what's left of it) is headquartered. There is major manufacturing in/near most of those cities including the "big 3" North American automakers as well as some of the Japanese automakers. I believe Chrysler Canada is actually HQ'd in Windsor. I don't know how much these people need to travel to TO but I assume jobs out there have been designed so it's not that much. However, unlike the T-O-M corridor, there is no competive air travel so the only real competition is highway 40 and maybe that lack of viable competition is the key advantage to starting the HSR out that way. .
I think this project - if it ever gets off the ground - would bring more western Ontario people to TO. Suddenly it will be feasible for someone in Windsor to come catch a Jays or Leafs game without having to spend the night (assuming the fare isn't absurd). I'm not sure too many Torontonians will travel the other way, unless the HSR spurs housing development in the west and people start to move out that way. But this government is philosophically opposed to urban sprawl and paving over farmland so I'm not sure that's something they would be encouraging.
BeaverFever @ Fri May 19, 2017 6:56 pm
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
Wait times haven't improved under ANY government! It took SIX HOURS for my mother to get looked at in the ER at the local hospital for her chronic pain condition, and it still takes FOUR HOURS of wait time for me in a walk-in clinic just to get antibiotics for my bronchitis (when I have it), not to mention anything else that people are in there for.
You are living in a complete fantasy world if you think wait times and/or health care a whole have improved. You are so brainwashed by the Liberal machine that Wynne and/or Trudeau could convince you that your father is a turnip, and you'd buy it without hesitation.
Instead of being just another hack, take your head out of your ass long enough to really see the sad state our Province is in. Go out there and see for yourself instead of quoting party bullshit. Any half-brained lab rat could do that.
This province has gone down the toilet, and all you left-wingers do is beg for more.
-J.
Your personal anecdotes aside, it's just a fact that wait times have improved. Read something for a change.
Coach85 @ Fri May 19, 2017 7:19 pm
This is the second time the Ontario Liberals have announced a high speed rail line months before an election. They did nothing last time they promised, this will be no different.
I assume there are some ridings within the path of the train that needs a Liberal boost. It's another move in the chess match.
At any rate, it's going the wrong way. It should go East to Ottawa and to Montreal.
Coach85 @ Fri May 19, 2017 7:26 pm
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Another empty trolling post.
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
A very general statement with very little fact behind it.
To say that wait times have improved as a whole, does not address the wait times for a variety of procedures.
Can you direct me to some documentation that shows the improvement in wait times?
BeaverFever @ Fri May 19, 2017 7:28 pm
$1:
High-speed rail in Ontario, finally? Not so fast
Premier Kathleen Wynne announces plan to build high-speed rail route along Toronto-Windsor corridor
Meagan Fitzpatrick · Reporter · CBC News
Calls for high-speed rail in one of Canada's busiest corridors have been made before and went unanswered. Will it be any different this time?
Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne announced Friday that the province is proceeding with a plan to build a high-speed rail route stretching along the Toronto-Windsor corridor.
High-speed rail between Toronto and London by 2025, premier says
High-speed trains between Toronto and Windsor subject of new report
The announcement follows a report Ontario commissioned from David Collenette, a former federal transportation minister who was hired by the province to assess whether the speedy rail line would be feasible.
He says it is, and that Ontario should go for it. Wynne herself noted in her remarks that excuses have been made for decades, but that "we've got to do it this time."
Here are some reasons why high-speed rail hasn't taken hold yet in Ontario — and some of the challenges that lie ahead in getting done.
Political will
The proposed plan is a massive and expensive infrastructure program and politicians have preferred in the past to get elected by promising to expand highways in their ridings, rather than rail routes.
Paul Langan, from an advocacy group called High Speed Rail Canada, told CBC News that a lack of political will is a major reason why high-speed rail has never been built in Ontario.
In his report, Collenette also cites "political willingness to support the huge investment over more than one election cycle" as a factor in limiting high-speed rail development.
Wynne high speed rail announcement
Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne announces plans for a high-speed rail corridor between Toronto and Windsor. Phase one, which would see stops in Kitchener-Waterloo and London, would be completed by 2025 if the project proceeds as proposed. (Radio-Canada)
Wynne, for example, says she is committed to building the Windsor-Toronto route. But Wynne may not be premier a year from now. Ontarians go to the polls in June 2018, and the premier will be in a fight for her political life next year.
Ontario Progressive Conservatives called Friday's announcement a political ploy the Liberals will "never deliver on." Would they? Their statement didn't say.
Competition for lines
Many of southwestern Ontario's rail lines are owned and operated by Canadian National Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway, which are private freight companies. Passenger rail services, such as Via Rail and GO Transit — which are operated by government-affiliated bodies — have to negotiate with CN and CP to use the lines.
Proposed map for high-speed rail in southern Ontario
This map shows a proposed high-speed rail network in southern Ontario, with stops in major population hubs such as London, Kitchener, Guelph and Toronto's Pearson airport. (Ontario Ministry of Transportation)
They are businesses and they prioritize freight over passengers — and that's slowed down talk of high-speed rail on those lines in the past.
It's likely agreements with CN and CP will be required for some sections of the proposed high-speed rail route, Collenette's report says.
Planes, not trains, and automobiles
Ontarians and Canadians are accustomed to generally outdated and inefficient rail service, according to Langan. He said it's hard for many people to imagine a modern, high-speed form of transportation. Unless they've travelled somewhere in Europe or Asia and have seen it for themselves, North Americans can't envision high-speed rail.
"People just think it's futuristic," he said, even though other parts of the world have been using it for decades. Ontario, he added, is "about 50 years behind."
Demands to ease congestion on the province's highways have been louder than demands for high-speed rail. Ontario added more lanes to Highway 401 near Toronto in 2016 — and that actually led to an increase in car use and congestion rather than reduce it, according to Collenette's report.
Low-cost airlines have also provided affordable alternatives to driving or taking a train around the province or to destinations in the U.S.
Wynne said Friday that in the past arguments were made that there wasn't enough demand or high enough population to warrant a high-speed rail corridor, but that in 2017, the demand is there and that young people in particular are asking for it. The report states that the Windsor-Toronto area is seeing high levels of economic and population growth.
Not in my backyard
Opposition to big infrastructure projects that impact people's homes, properties and communities always has been and always will be a challenge for governments.
While its advocates say there are many benefits to high-speed rail, the arguments may fall on deaf ears for those whose backyards might literally have a new rail line running by it.
Collenette's report emphasizes that among the stakeholders that must be listened to are the Indigenous communities affected by the proposed route.
Time, money, regulations
These projects cost billions of dollars and take years to build. The environmental assessment alone is estimated to cost $15 million and take four years.
Ontario's plan is to build phase one connecting Toronto to London by 2025 and then phase two would extend to Windsor by 2031.
In total, the project's price tag could be in the $20-billion range, but, it depends on how much the private sector is involved and on support from the federal government. Ontario is looking to partner on the project.
The province also argues that high-speed rail could eventually yield $20 billion in economic benefits through automobile operating cost savings, reduced congestion on roads and reduced greenhouse gas emissions and other economic benefits.
Trains going at more than 200 kilometres an hour need federal approval, and there will be other regulations to work through to get the project going, including the environmental assessment.
Premier Kathleen Wynne announces plan to build high-speed rail route along Toronto-Windsor corridor
Meagan Fitzpatrick · Reporter · CBC News
Calls for high-speed rail in one of Canada's busiest corridors have been made before and went unanswered. Will it be any different this time?
Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne announced Friday that the province is proceeding with a plan to build a high-speed rail route stretching along the Toronto-Windsor corridor.
High-speed rail between Toronto and London by 2025, premier says
High-speed trains between Toronto and Windsor subject of new report
The announcement follows a report Ontario commissioned from David Collenette, a former federal transportation minister who was hired by the province to assess whether the speedy rail line would be feasible.
He says it is, and that Ontario should go for it. Wynne herself noted in her remarks that excuses have been made for decades, but that "we've got to do it this time."
Here are some reasons why high-speed rail hasn't taken hold yet in Ontario — and some of the challenges that lie ahead in getting done.
Political will
The proposed plan is a massive and expensive infrastructure program and politicians have preferred in the past to get elected by promising to expand highways in their ridings, rather than rail routes.
Paul Langan, from an advocacy group called High Speed Rail Canada, told CBC News that a lack of political will is a major reason why high-speed rail has never been built in Ontario.
In his report, Collenette also cites "political willingness to support the huge investment over more than one election cycle" as a factor in limiting high-speed rail development.
Wynne high speed rail announcement
Ontario Premier Kathleen Wynne announces plans for a high-speed rail corridor between Toronto and Windsor. Phase one, which would see stops in Kitchener-Waterloo and London, would be completed by 2025 if the project proceeds as proposed. (Radio-Canada)
Wynne, for example, says she is committed to building the Windsor-Toronto route. But Wynne may not be premier a year from now. Ontarians go to the polls in June 2018, and the premier will be in a fight for her political life next year.
Ontario Progressive Conservatives called Friday's announcement a political ploy the Liberals will "never deliver on." Would they? Their statement didn't say.
Competition for lines
Many of southwestern Ontario's rail lines are owned and operated by Canadian National Railway and Canadian Pacific Railway, which are private freight companies. Passenger rail services, such as Via Rail and GO Transit — which are operated by government-affiliated bodies — have to negotiate with CN and CP to use the lines.
Proposed map for high-speed rail in southern Ontario
This map shows a proposed high-speed rail network in southern Ontario, with stops in major population hubs such as London, Kitchener, Guelph and Toronto's Pearson airport. (Ontario Ministry of Transportation)
They are businesses and they prioritize freight over passengers — and that's slowed down talk of high-speed rail on those lines in the past.
It's likely agreements with CN and CP will be required for some sections of the proposed high-speed rail route, Collenette's report says.
Planes, not trains, and automobiles
Ontarians and Canadians are accustomed to generally outdated and inefficient rail service, according to Langan. He said it's hard for many people to imagine a modern, high-speed form of transportation. Unless they've travelled somewhere in Europe or Asia and have seen it for themselves, North Americans can't envision high-speed rail.
"People just think it's futuristic," he said, even though other parts of the world have been using it for decades. Ontario, he added, is "about 50 years behind."
Demands to ease congestion on the province's highways have been louder than demands for high-speed rail. Ontario added more lanes to Highway 401 near Toronto in 2016 — and that actually led to an increase in car use and congestion rather than reduce it, according to Collenette's report.
Low-cost airlines have also provided affordable alternatives to driving or taking a train around the province or to destinations in the U.S.
Wynne said Friday that in the past arguments were made that there wasn't enough demand or high enough population to warrant a high-speed rail corridor, but that in 2017, the demand is there and that young people in particular are asking for it. The report states that the Windsor-Toronto area is seeing high levels of economic and population growth.
Not in my backyard
Opposition to big infrastructure projects that impact people's homes, properties and communities always has been and always will be a challenge for governments.
While its advocates say there are many benefits to high-speed rail, the arguments may fall on deaf ears for those whose backyards might literally have a new rail line running by it.
Collenette's report emphasizes that among the stakeholders that must be listened to are the Indigenous communities affected by the proposed route.
Time, money, regulations
These projects cost billions of dollars and take years to build. The environmental assessment alone is estimated to cost $15 million and take four years.
Ontario's plan is to build phase one connecting Toronto to London by 2025 and then phase two would extend to Windsor by 2031.
In total, the project's price tag could be in the $20-billion range, but, it depends on how much the private sector is involved and on support from the federal government. Ontario is looking to partner on the project.
The province also argues that high-speed rail could eventually yield $20 billion in economic benefits through automobile operating cost savings, reduced congestion on roads and reduced greenhouse gas emissions and other economic benefits.
Trains going at more than 200 kilometres an hour need federal approval, and there will be other regulations to work through to get the project going, including the environmental assessment.
http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/canada/high ... -1.4123920
BeaverFever @ Fri May 19, 2017 8:56 pm
Coach85 Coach85:
BeaverFever BeaverFever:
Another empty trolling post.
Oh and since you mentioned it, wait times have improved under from worst in the country under the Conservatives to best in the country under the Liberals.
A very general statement with very little fact behind it.
To say that wait times have improved as a whole, does not address the wait times for a variety of procedures.
Can you direct me to some documentation that shows the improvement in wait times?
Links:
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/canada/sho ... -1.3161035
https://www.google.ca/amp/s/sec.theglob ... vice%3Damp
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/hea ... -1.3171718
http://www.ctvnews.ca/mobile/health/mos ... -1.3343526
Public_Domain @ Fri May 19, 2017 9:18 pm