1 Oct 2017: Catalonia Independence or start of civil war?
BartSimpson @ Mon Sep 25, 2017 9:09 am
I don't know if you folks have been following this but Catalonia in Spain is on the verge of hostilities over Catalonia's bid for independence this coming Sunday, October 1, 2017.
What's happened so far is that the leftist leaders of Catalonia have been arrested by the conservative Spanish government for trying to hold a referendum on independence. The central government contends that the attempted referendum is illegal but the fact of the matter is that there are no actual laws or decrees that outlaw the referendum.
The central government is also trying to take control of Catalonia's police agencies and they're trying to bring in national police and military to effect this control. So far the efforts to bring in government police and troops have been stymied.
Four cruise ships that were chartered to bring central government police and military into Barcelona are laying offshore because Catalonian dock workers refuse to dock the ships. An attempt to tender these police and military units was turned around and it's unclear exactly why they turned around but Euronews said witnesses had reported Catolonian police gunboats went out to meet the tenders and ordered them to return to their ships.
At this point a defacto state of military or police law has been imposed on Catalonia as the central government has arrested key members of the elected civilian government.
The central government also seized some ten million pre-printed ballots saying that the ballots were illegal while failing to cite a law saying so. Catalan independence backers promise they'll run the referendum anyway and they're going to have ballots ready but won't say where they're coming from.
Catalonia is the most liberal of Spain's provinces. It used to be independent and a desire for independence never disappeared. Catalonia has its own language. The province represents some 16% of Spain's population. One of the main issues the region has with the central government is that 20% of the central government's revenue comes from Catalonia while central government spending in Catalonia is only 13% of total spending.
To me it is somewhat...delicious...that a wealthy leftist region objects to sharing their wealth with poorer and more conservative regions of Spain. 
Still, I support their desire to restore Catalonia as an independent and sovereign nation and the illegal and ill-considered actions of the central government illustrate why these people want to be free of the regime in Madrid.
What remains to be seen is if one week from now we see an independent Catalonia or if we see Spain devolve into civil war. 
BartSimpson @ Mon Sep 25, 2017 10:14 am
An article from the Federalist dated two days ago:
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Is Spain Going to Explode Over Catalonian Secession?
The autonomous region of Catalonia has once again called for a referendum for secession from Spain, and all hell is breaking loose. Although the vote is still two weeks away, this week has seen a marked increase in tension and conflict between the two sides that’s quickly reaching a boiling point. The government in Spain, which calls the planned vote illegal, has frozen Catalonia’s access to public funds so that they can’t be spent on organizing the referendum. It is also trying to shut down its access to ballot boxes, although the Catalan government says it has 6,000 of them hidden away.
On Wednesday, the Spanish military arrested 14 high ranking Catalan officials and raided 41 Catalan regional government departments across the region. They have also raided newspapers to look for documents having to do with the referendum, following a judge’s order. This caused more than 40,000 protesters to take to the streets of Barcelona on Thursday night, which then provoked the Spanish government to send troops into the city. Tens of thousands are gathering again in the city today for more protests.
Demonstrating the severity of the situation, the government in Madrid had attempted to send 4,000 police officers to the region on Thursday in police boats which were meant to dock in Catalonia to deal with the escalating situation, but the boats couldn’t dock—the port workers wouldn’t cooperate. They either boycotted or refused docking access to the ships. The government responded by hiring ferries to be moored in the Port of Barcelona as temporary housing for police.
This Isn’t The First Time Catalonia Has Sought Independence
Catalonia has long called for independence from Spain. As recently as 2014, it tried to hold a similar independence referendum. At that time, the Spanish government pushed back, calling the vote illegal. That caused Catalan leaders to rebrand the vote as a “participation process” to see how much support the Catalan government had for political independence. Catalan leaders still faced legal consequences for holding that vote, something that was presumably meant to scare Catalonia off from holding another referendum.
That clearly didn’t work. This time around, Catalonia is much more defiant and is not taking no for an answer, which seems to be part and parcel of the populism that’s been sweeping Europe in the last couple of years. Now, it appears Catalonia’s boldness could boil over into the kind of civil unrest that Western Europe hasn’t seen in decades.
According to the Catalan National Assembly, the Spanish government “made a big mistake; we wanted to vote and they declared war.” Catalan leaders say what they really want, more than independence, is democracy: “The issue that is at stake today isn’t the independence — or not — of Catalonia,” Raül Romeva, Catalonia’s foreign affairs chief, told a group of foreign correspondents in Madrid on Wednesday, “but democracy in Spain and the European Union.”
Catalonians Want Choice More Than Independence
This reflects recent opinion polls that show support for independence in Catalonia has actually dropped; what people really want is simply the right to make a decision concerning independence themselves, democratically. It also highlights the increasing frustration with the EU and a rising sentiment that EU leaders are making decisions for member states without being held accountable in the way leaders usually are in a democracy—by facing re-election.
The government in Spain looks nervous. It doesn’t want its sovereignty challenged by the vote taking place. If the vote takes place under official Catalan auspices, it’s a tacit acknowledgement that Catalonia is a separate entity, perhaps even with sovereign rights. So the government in Madrid is coming down like a hammer, which only makes the Catalan people look more sympathetic.
Leaders of the Catalan independence movement say that Catalan lawmakers will honor the outcome within 48 hours of the vote, regardless of which way it goes, meaning they will declare independence if that’s what the voters want. If that happens, what next?
Beyond the clumsiness of the Spanish government’s handling of the affair, and the undercurrent of frustration with the high-handedness of the EU, the Spanish-Catalan dispute highlights a fundamental contradiction at the heart of Wilsonian internationalism: how do you resolve the tension between the declaration that ethnic groups have a right to self-determination with the idea that countries have the right to maintain their borders and sovereignty?
martin14 @ Mon Sep 25, 2017 11:16 am
The ferries are for the extra 4,000 Guardia Civil (National Police) being moved into
Catalonia to help the 5,000 normally posted there.
40,000 protesters ? They will need 2 million in the streets before anything happens.
This is akin to the PQ organizing a referendum without the agreement of anyone else,
the Feds or the provincial 'No' campaign not being allowed to participate.
So the legality of such a vote is obviously zero.
Spain won't recognize it, neither would the EU.
This is the last thing the EU wants, 20 'regions' in Europe going to revolt.
They have enough trouble as it is. 
Independence ? No.
Civil war ? Doubtful.
Very few will get upset enough to risk their lives for this.
But the Catalans know they have act very soon, so many immigrants in Catalonia
who would obviously vote 'NO', and in a few more years the Catalans won't have
the numbers to even try.
Just like Quebec.
BartSimpson @ Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:20 am
CNN: Catalonia on collision course as banned referendum nears
http://www.cnn.com/2017/09/29/europe/sp ... index.html
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Barcelona, Spain (CNN) — Spanish and Catalan authorities appeared set on a collision course Friday ahead of a disputed independence referendum that has polarized the country.
Catalonia's separatist government is adamant it will go ahead with Sunday's referendum despite the country's highest court barring it as unconstitutional.
Spain's central government insists the referendum is illegal, must not go ahead and that the result will not be recognized. It has drafted in thousands of extra police to try to prevent the vote taking place.
In the run-up to the vote, Catalan officials have accused Spanish authorities of trying to suppress the people's democratic rights.
Catalonia's separatist government is adamant it will go ahead with Sunday's referendum despite the country's highest court barring it as unconstitutional.
Spain's central government insists the referendum is illegal, must not go ahead and that the result will not be recognized. It has drafted in thousands of extra police to try to prevent the vote taking place.
In the run-up to the vote, Catalan officials have accused Spanish authorities of trying to suppress the people's democratic rights.
BartSimpson @ Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:21 am
The confrontation by the central government is needless. Let the Catalans have their vote and then say it's illegal and ignore it.
The police action almost certainly invites a response to obvious oppression.
DrCaleb @ Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:33 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
The police action almost certainly invites a response to obvious oppression.
^^
In Canada, we had 'love ins' in Quebec when they decided they would try the same thing. Throwing police at it would have just made everyone more polarized.
BartSimpson @ Fri Sep 29, 2017 10:50 am
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
The police action almost certainly invites a response to obvious oppression.
^^
In Canada, we had 'love ins' in Quebec when they decided they would try the same thing. Throwing police at it would have just made everyone more polarized.
Exactly. What Spain really needs to do here is to assure the Catalans that they are part of a bigger Spanish family and that they're appreciated.
To quote Hugh Hefner, "a little respect goes a long way."
martin14 @ Sun Oct 01, 2017 12:55 pm
Not much respect given today.
World leaders and the Pope condemn violence in Catalonia as Spanish prime minister claims riot police prevented illegal independence referendum after 761 protesters were hurt in crack down and fans were barred from attending Barcelona game
Officers were seen storming buildings across Catalonia to seize ballot boxes and prevent voting
The Spanish government in Madrid has declared the vote illegal and ordered it be shut down
Separatists pledged to hold the referendum anyway and called on 5.3million eligible citizens to vote
Thousands of demonstrators have taken to the streets to protest against their votes being taken away
Barcelona's mayor said that at least 460 people had been injured in the clashes across Catalonia
FC Barcelona is playing its match against Las Palmas 'behind closed doors' at an empty Nou Camp
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4uHvCLijJ
MeganC @ Sun Oct 01, 2017 4:20 pm
OMG can't believe the things I am seeing on YouTube!!! If the vote wasn't valid then why have the police attacking people??? 
Sunnyways @ Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:20 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Still, I support their desire to restore Catalonia as an independent and sovereign nation and the illegal and ill-considered actions of the central government illustrate why these people want to be free of the regime in Madrid.
What remains to be seen is if one week from now we see an independent Catalonia or if we see Spain devolve into civil war.
]
Not to get too libertarian here but we do tend to worship countries like gods and talk rather too much about how eternal and sacred they are. Granted, they have their uses in protecting us, no small matter, but in the final analysis they exist for our benefit, not vice versa, and all of them are temporary arrangements. They come and go, and we should prepare more carefully for their peaceful evolution. Throughout human history, borders were usually changed by war; the examples of Czechoslovakia, Scotland and Quebec should show us a better way.
Sunnyways @ Sun Oct 01, 2017 8:32 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
To me it is somewhat...delicious...that a wealthy leftist region objects to sharing their wealth with poorer and more conservative regions of Spain.
Still, I support their desire to restore Catalonia as an independent and sovereign nation and the illegal and ill-considered actions of the central government illustrate why these people want to be free of the regime in Madrid.
What remains to be seen is if one week from now we see an independent Catalonia or if we see Spain devolve into civil war.
How delicious would you find the prospect of a wealthy leftist region like California leaving the US if it ever wanted to? At the moment, the US, still in the grip of Lincoln thinkin', makes that virtually impossible. I support the proposition that all viable regions should have the right to vote on their future and secede if that is their settled will to do so. That applies equally to the alliterative group of Kurdistan, Kashmir and Catalonia for starters. I think Ukraine would be also wise to use the same rationale in Crimea despite the obvious fact that Russia would despise such votes elsewhere when they didn't go its way.
Catalonia did not prepare well for this. Matters like membership of the euro and the EU and even La Liga (we are talking Barcelona after all) have not been been properly discussed, let alone how much of Spain's monstrous national debt would have to be shouldered. Still, I support their right to vote on their future. The outrageous behaviour of Spanish federal police today has greatly strengthened the independence movement.
martin14 @ Sun Oct 01, 2017 10:24 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
How delicious would you find the prospect of a wealthy leftist region like California leaving the US if it ever wanted to?
Trust me, nothing would make him happier than Commiefornia leaving.
Even though he would need to then leave Commiefornia.
$1:
Catalonia did not prepare well for this. Matters like membership of the euro and the EU and even La Liga (we are talking Barcelona after all) have not been been properly discussed, let alone how much of Spain's monstrous national debt would have to be shouldered. Still, I support their right to vote on their future. The outrageous behaviour of Spanish federal police today has greatly strengthened the independence movement.
That's because if the Catalans had started discussing these things,
there would be no independence and no vote either.
The whole thing falls apart when you start to discuss reality,
and that's why the leftists have to try and delude the people.
42% turnout, 90% voted yes.
But no one is going to look at the result.
The people of Catalonia are being fed a bunch of lies by the leftists.
Sunnyways @ Mon Oct 02, 2017 8:42 am
martin14 martin14:
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
How delicious would you find the prospect of a wealthy leftist region like California leaving the US if it ever wanted to?
Trust me, nothing would make him happier than Commiefornia leaving.
Even though he would need to then leave Commiefornia.
$1:
Catalonia did not prepare well for this. Matters like membership of the euro and the EU and even La Liga (we are talking Barcelona after all) have not been been properly discussed, let alone how much of Spain's monstrous national debt would have to be shouldered. Still, I support their right to vote on their future. The outrageous behaviour of Spanish federal police today has greatly strengthened the independence movement.
That's because if the Catalans had started discussing these things,
there would be no independence and no vote either.
The whole thing falls apart when you start to discuss reality,
and that's why the leftists have to try and delude the people.
42% turnout, 90% voted yes.
But no one is going to look at the result.
The people of Catalonia are being fed a bunch of lies by the leftists.
Spain does not have a leftist government. The vote that occurred is difficult to interpret given the turnout and was distorted by the violence. If Rajoy had been reasonable and negotiated with Catalonia, he would probably have won the vote and avoided this disaster. Countries have got to see regional independence movements in a whole new light if we are to avoid conflict in the future.
BartSimpson @ Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:16 am
martin14 martin14:
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
How delicious would you find the prospect of a wealthy leftist region like California leaving the US if it ever wanted to?
Trust me, nothing would make him happier than Commiefornia leaving.
Even though he would need to then leave Commiefornia.
You know me well!
![[B-o]](./images/smilies/drinkup.gif "Drink up")
In two weeks Lisa and I are taking a trip to Idaho to see about using our ill-gotten gains from Victoria to buy a place up around Weiser or maybe Coeur d'Alene.
Because sooner or later I do expect California (or at least the southern part) to secede from the USA and I don't want to be stuck here when it happens.
Sunnyways @ Mon Oct 02, 2017 9:26 am
The images from Barcelona are unbelievable, e.g. police stomping on women and dragging them by their hair.