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Good question Mixer. I think it matters, but I also think that Canadians have never really faced so much critical policy, in history as we do today. For many it is too much, they do care about Canada, it's just that they don't know what to do, or can't see that they can make a difference. For many people,I have talked to, they think that Canada is just a small fish in this huge pond, that multi-national corporate rule is so big, we are really just sitting ducks and the best we can do is hope they will be merciful! <br /> <br />I don't agree,but also think that if we could get people to think beyond the current media, read books, magazines that are informative and most of all, start talking. Even if we don't agree about how to get there, at least determine there is something wrong, something happening in the world which involves Canada and which will impact our lives for today and the future. We can make a difference but we have to examine the whole picture, not just what certain elements of society want us to think. <br /> <br />I do think we are facing and have been for some time, the death of our nation, or at the very least she is critically ill. Apathy is the main problem, you can't be apathetic and angry at the same time. Most people just want a degree of peace, quiet and happiness, and they don't coincide with the knowledge of what is happening to our country. That's my take. <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/cry.gif' alt='Cry'>

   

Some of our problems are definitely over-dramatized (healthcare for instance), but in my opinion Canada is facing some real, country threatening problems. <br /> <br />If people cared they would do something productive. You know I hate to be politically incorrect, but I don't consider protesting really productive. It is nothing more than an excuse to throw a big street party. Protests block traffic, therefore keeping workers from getting to their jobs, therefore actually hurting our economy. Protests also expend precious police power and sometimes get out of hand. I sympathise with people who think they are fighting for a cause they believe in, but they have become too much of an attraction for trouble-makers. Also, they just look like a big joke. You get a bunch of people in the street chanting the same rhetoric over and over again and waiving simplistic signs, such as the ever-so-popular "Bush is a meanie." Give me a break. <br /> <br />If you are really interested in doing something productive for your country, you should do something intelligent, like writing a letter, or a newspaper article or a book! Go to a conference, give a speech, just please stop clogging the streets. There are better ways to spend your time! <img align=absmiddle src='images/smilies/biggrin.gif' alt='Big Grin'>

   

I am not big on the protester idea either,(personal choice,because I don't enjoy being in a crowd of unruly people, which can happen as emotions run high) but I think the main purpose is to disrupt enough to get the media to report that people are upset, which gets the politicians thinking and paying attention, moreso than perhaps one letter. That is why petitions are fairly effective, as are letters to the editor, which get more people thinking.

   

I think a well written article or letter will have a much bigger impact on politicians then a protest. Think about this: what if instead of protesting out on the street, every one of those people wrote a letter to someone in government? That would accomplish a lot more than any march. <br /> <br />And this is another thing I find funny about protests. There are hundreds or even thousands of people in the street protesting something like NAFTA because it is screwing our economy, yet here they are blocking traffic and generally disrupting the economy themselves. Kind of hypocritical.

   

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I think a well written article or letter will have a much bigger impact on politicians then a protest. Think about this: what if instead of protesting out on the street, every one of those people wrote a letter to someone in government? That would accomplish a lot more than any march. <br /> <br />And this is another thing I find funny about protests. There are hundreds or even thousands of people in the street protesting something like NAFTA because it is screwing our economy, yet here they are blocking traffic and generally disrupting the economy themselves. Kind of hypocritical.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Agreecompletely with you Whalen. I have no problem with protesting as long as it is done in a peaceful non imposing manner. The problem is most protestors are only their to cause trouble and most of them are (I hate to say this but its true) are dumb as fuck anyways. Lol when i turn on the screen and see some anarchist throwing rocks at riot police and chanting anti-capitalist slogans I think to myself...... <br /> <br />Why didn't they just pull the trigger already???

   

[QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I think a well written article or letter will have a much bigger impact on politicians then a protest. Think about this: what if instead of protesting out on the street, every one of those people wrote a letter to someone in government? That would accomplish a lot more than any march. <br /> <br />And this is another thing I find funny about protests. There are hundreds or even thousands of people in the street protesting something like NAFTA because it is screwing our economy, yet here they are blocking traffic and generally disrupting the economy themselves. Kind of hypocritical.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I don't think blocking traffic does much of anything to our economy at all. It's already congested. That's what happened when we tore up our rails. <br /> <br />Demonstrations by their very nature are WAY to short-term to hurt the economy--most of which is either tax-free, providing no benefit to me, or provides taxes to the government which are probably just given back to the same companies in the form of tax cuts.

   

Stymiest, surely you are not suggesting that protesters should be shot? Having the right to protest is one thing, whether they are effective is another. While I believe we should have the right to speak out, and publicly protest as I said earlier, it serves the purpose to disrupt enough to get the issue on the news. However the news doesn't necessarily report the way things really go down, and I have read other reports where there are agitators put into the crowd deliberately to cause altercations and make the protestors look violent, when they are not!

   

[QUOTE BY= Perturbed] [QUOTE BY= z_whalen] I think a well written article or letter will have a much bigger impact on politicians then a protest. Think about this: what if instead of protesting out on the street, every one of those people wrote a letter to someone in government? That would accomplish a lot more than any march. <br /> <br />And this is another thing I find funny about protests. There are hundreds or even thousands of people in the street protesting something like NAFTA because it is screwing our economy, yet here they are blocking traffic and generally disrupting the economy themselves. Kind of hypocritical.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br /> <br />I don't think blocking traffic does much of anything to our economy at all. It's already congested. That's what happened when we tore up our rails. <br /> <br />Demonstrations by their very nature are WAY to short-term to hurt the economy--most of which is either tax-free, providing no benefit to me, or provides taxes to the government which are probably just given back to the same companies in the form of tax cuts.[/QUOTE] <br /> <br />Yes I agree compared to the economic impact of something such as NAFTA a simple protest has nil effect on the economy, but since protesting really accomplishes squat it has zero positive economic impact. I don't think protesters are attracting many people to their cause by making everyone late for work. I don't think most protesters even think about this for one second. They are too absorbed in thinking they are being rebellious, when really, protests are just mass gatherings of whiners. <br /> <br />[QUOTE]Stymiest, surely you are not suggesting that protesters should be shot? Having the right to protest is one thing, whether they are effective is another. While I believe we should have the right to speak out, and publicly protest as I said earlier, it serves the purpose to disrupt enough to get the issue on the news. However the news doesn't necessarily report the way things really go down, and I have read other reports where there are agitators put into the crowd deliberately to cause altercations and make the protestors look violent, when they are not![/QUOTE] <br /> <br />I get sick and tired of protester complaining about police brutality. They get hit with some pepper spray and spend the night in jail, big deal. Look at Tiananmen Square! The stuff our police do to keep protesters under control is pretty tame. What do you expect them to do when people start throwing beer bottles and the situation actually becomes dangerous? Go around and ask everyone if they are here to protest peacefully before they cuff them? I say break out the pepper-spray grenades and send the crowd packing. It's sad but sometimes it has to happen.

   

Well Zachary I hear your democratic voice, loud and clear! Very sad! Most protests are not violent, most are peaceful and as I mentioned previously the throwing of beer bottles, breaking windows, is often the work of hired agitators, not true protesters. Protesting is free speech, the right to assemble etc, and that is democracy, like it or not; but if there was nothing to protest it wouldn't be necessary, and that is another way to stop protestors, just have governments act responsibly with our tax dollars, respect people and environment.

   

Protests aren't effective? Why is it that Canada didn't join the war on Iraq? I took to the streets with about 25000 other people here in Vancouver. On several occasions. Some cities saw protests of up to a million people. And that included massive protests across Canada, with Montreal's boasting estimates of as many as 500 000 protestors in the streets. And suddenly our government did a 180 in policy and decided not to join the American-led invasion of Iraq. Don't tell me protests are useless. <br /> <br />The fact is that protests need to be big enough to threaten the entity that they are challenging. Hundreds of thousands, if not a million Canadians in the streets sends a pretty strong message to the government of 30 million people. <br /> <br />Fifteen million people in the streets would see NAFTA torn up in about five minutes. <br /> <br />And lets not forget the Winnipeg General Strike of 1919, when virtually every working person took to the streets in protest of poor working conditions and the refusal to allow a machine shop to unionize. The strike is credited with an array of labour reforms. <br /> <br />Or how about the Anti-Asian Riot of 1907, a protest against asians (who were annoying hard-working) by a bunch of racists? The result was the Opium Act, a piece of narcotics legislation designed, much like the Narcotics Act of the USA, to discourage 'unwanted' immigrants? (I'm not saying I agree with it - just that it worked) <br /> <br />Zachary, as for protestors instigating violence, our police are there to protect the people, in theory. However, I have friends who have been pepper sprayed while on their knees, holding their hands with their wrists together above their heads, waiting to be handcuffed. It was caught on film but because they couldn't afford proper lawyers, the cops got off scot-free. My cousin filmed the Seattle protest and gathered footage much the same... police pepper spraying peaceful protestors who had already given themselves up to the police and done them no harm. <br /> <br />And it's not just in protests. I was at a house party where the cops kicked in the door because of a noise complaint. Seriously! They hauled the owner out of the house and while he was climbing into the back seat of the cop car on his own, they taunted him with pepper spray. There were no drugs in the house. No vandalism going on. Just a bunch of young adults of legal drinking age sitting around drinking, dancing and listening to music. <br /> <br />Another friend of mine, on another night, was the designated driver for a group of about five. They were at a party for the night and his friends were keeping their booze in the trunk of his car. The police saw them getting their booze out of the parked car's trunk (no one was in the actual car) and arrested my friend for drunk driving. He hadn't had a drop of alcohol that night and was in no way intoxicated. When he demanded a breathalizer, they refused. He asked for a lawyer and they wouldn't grant him that basic right. They didn't even read him his rights. When his maximum holding time (without being charged) was up... 8 hours or whatever it is, they told him he could go once he signed a release form. He began to read the form and they told him he was taking too long and threw him back in the cell for a further 4-6 hours. <br /> <br />My point is that it isn't so much the protestors that are starting the altercations (although that DOES sometimes occur). Police abuse their powers and our rights as a matter of habit. <br /> <br />Besides, why is it that we think that streets are private space to be used only by motor vehicle owners? My view is that streets are subsidized by my tax dollars and therefore I should have just as much right to use them as someone who owns an SUV. And if I choose to use them to make a political point, so be it. <br /> <br />And stop touting this "hurt the economy" crap. The economy is a tool. It is a tool used to deliver services to us. I don't feel it's fair that some people should suffer while others prosper in greed. In short - the economy should serve us, not the other way around.

   

Wow Kory I'm sure you have taken into consideration the guy who is just trying to get to his job on time but has to put up with a bunch of whiners in the street making him late. Being late for work is something employees are reprimanded for. So thanks for helping out the little guy. <br /> <br />And yes protests can gather thousands of people, many of whom are uneducated wannabe activists. Real activists voice their opinion clearly and seriously: none of this "no blood for oil" chanting bullshit. I personally cannot take protests seriously. To me it looks like a bunch of people out in the street looking for an excuse to have a good time, while keeping others from getting to work on time. That is why I think it is much more effective to do something that actually takes effort, beyond painting up a sign and thinking of a good chant. Writing something will work a lot better to further your cause because it shows cynics like me that you know what you are talking about and that you are willing to put in some effort to further your idea. A thousand people chanting in the street can be disregarded as mob mentality; one hundred well written, well thought out letters will have a much bigger impact.

   

Whalen says: "Real activists voice their opinion clearly and seriously: none of this "no blood for oil" chanting bullshit.' <br /> <br />I would have to disagree on that statement 'no blood for oil', the way I see it it is pretty simple and easily comprehended message even for the politician. The poor guy trying to get to work who is reprimanded by an employer because a protester made him late, is a little lame, the employer obviously has become desensitized to the real world. <br /> <br />Protesters who are taking time off from their work, usually losing pay to do so, to stand up because someone else has no job, no food, dying of uranium, bombs killing babies, etc etc.; those are the people who really are putting their money where their mouths are; writing letters can be effective, but also can be disregarded quit easily. For example how many petition, letters etc have been written in opposition to LM involvement in our census, how many to oppose BMD? Are they listening? Not so far, a protest would have far more effect in this instance. <br /> <br />

   

Problem is a lot of those letters are word for word exactly the same. That is what happens when you use a generic form in letter-writing campaign. The LM campaign has been undermined by people who jump at the chance of an easy alternative to actually doing work. So what you get are hundred of identical letters written by people who would never actually sit down and put the effort into writing something down in their own words if that was the only option. It's kind of the same thing that undermines the effectiveness of a protest. It's not proving that everyone actually cares that much.

   

Zachary, you've already said you think that the US shouldn't have invaded Iraq. Well, Canada would have helped them if it hadn't been for people like me taking to the streets in protest? Doesn't work? Well it sure seemed to work THAT time? <br /> <br />And have I thought about the people who get inconvenienced by these rallies? Well yes. Unfortunately for them, I'm absolutely crystal clear in listening to my conscience on this one. Are you truly suggesting that we would be better off committing tyranny by invading Iraq and killing off innocent civilians so that American corporations could syphon off their oil? <br /> <br />I apologize, but if that's the case then I WILL inconvenience any workers who happen to work within a one block radius of the embassies in vancouver AND happens to be so ignorant to his surroundings that he misses the two posters on every telephone pole in town announcing the upcoming protests and plans appropriately. <br /> <br />Ok, sure. Protests are annoying. But they're effective and simple. Some people don't express themselves very well in words. And some people get completely ignored when they use conventional channels to try to influence policy. And so they stage a protest and through the media, make a call for greater support. Maybe YOU read the letters to the editor, but I bet there are a lot of people out there who get their news only from television. How do you reach out for their support if not through demonstrative protest?

   

I'm in agreement with Whelan Costen and Kory on this one. But most importantly, I take exception to the characterization of activists as uneducated. Most of us (yes, I'm included) are highly educated, usually self-educated because of lack of media coverage, on the issue we are protesting. Honestly, how much mainstream media coverage is there detailing the effects of globalization? And yet, you get thousands upon thousands of people out to inconvenience the worker. That's because they are dedicated, upset, and know that taking time off work is the only thing they can do! (BTW: most protest routes are clearly marked before a rally, are cordoned off, ect, and alternate routes are given, if the protest is big enough to affect road closure. That's one of the first things a protest organizer will do. If no one listens, not our fault. We actually have the same right a motorist has to that road, whether that's just and fair or not). <br /> <br />Its not ineffective. Public protests are the most effective way of getting your issues heard. Take it from someone who has had several letters published- no one remembers the content of those letters, or the arguments I've made. What does everyone remember? I'm the one with the bullhorn who shouts about tuition rates or privatization. And they come to *me* for information, not the newspaper. That's why protests are effective- there is information and a chance to get active, or a petition to sign. It isn't for everyone, but for those who are good at it, and manage to hold an event without the paid agitators Whelan mentioned (yes, they really do exist), its more than worth it. The publicity for your issue is amazing, and the media is right there to get your side of the story- in fact, need your side, because otherwise their bosses won't air or run it (can't look too biased). <br /> <br />If they don't make everyone sit up and say, "Gee, I really understand why their so upset. Hey, Hippy! Give me that placard!" so what? Protests are aimed at the minority of people who give enough of a damn to stand and be counted.

   

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