Canada Kicks Ass
Stanley trial is going to end badly no matter the finding

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Zipperfish @ Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:12 pm

Mowich Mowich:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:

First Nations can and have stopped projects. The New Prosperity mine on Tsilqot'in territory in BC, for example. The Gov't of Canada can overrule based on the national interest, but it has to be justified. I imagine we'll see the limits of that justification in court cases around the Site C dam and the Kinder Morgan pipeline.


The Kinder-Morgan pipeline will be built. There is no justification what-so-ever for FN people to try and stop it simply because they want too.


We'll see. It's not just the First Nations. A lot of folks in BC aren't that crazy about it.

   



Freakinoldguy @ Thu Feb 15, 2018 11:48 pm

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:


is accurate because if it was the Trans Mountain pipeline would have been stopped long ago But, why do you keep harping on a UN declaration that has no legal standing in Canada?

Besides if you'd have been paying attention you'd have noticed that gov'ts even this one have no problem blowing off thing that are inconvenient for them. All you have to do is look at Trudeau's disregarding of the 3 treaties we have with various countries about the legalizing of drugs.


I said the Indian Act didn't apply, and that S. 35 of the Constitution was the more relevant legal statute. Nothing you've said has changed that. As a matter of fact all you've done is argue about the significance and relevance of S.35 of the Constitution, which was my exact point to start with.


I don't think I'm "harping" on UNDRIP. I said Canada is signatory to it. Signing an international treaty isn't binding. It is indication that the signatory nation will enact domestic law and policy to enable the treaty. And Trudeau will be announcing a reconciliation agenda in the next few days I believe.

Trans Mountain. I'll guess we'll see that one in court. Some bands have signed on. Others haven't. Martin likes to go on about "mo money" but the problem KM has is that they have offered boatloads of money and some First Nations still want nothing to do with it. They've been down that road before, when the prairie indians go collect the $5 dollars a year they signed away their territories for.


Did you read the part about the Coldwater band winning their lawsuit. The Gov't can no longer short change them despite treaties they signed in the past. This judgement gives them the right to seek proper redress for the use of their lands. So I'm imagining that the five bucks the Saskatchewan bands are supposedly getting for their treaty money has been bumped up enough that they can now buy buildings in Saskatoon and Regina and then declare them part of the Reserve.


$1:
It’s been a parking lot for years but on Wednesday a Saskatchewan First Nation announced its commitment to constructing a $40-million commercial office complex in downtown Saskatoon.

“Yellow Quill intends to build a class “A” architecturally-inspired office building to the highest environmental and efficiency standards,” said Tom McClocklin, Colliers International Saskatchewan president/managing director.

Perry Bellegarde, chief of the Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations, announces he is running to become chief of the Assembly of First Nations. FSIN Chief Perry Bellegarde running for AFN chief
It’s been a four-year process but Yellow Quill has secured reserve status for the property and is looking to secure additional tenant leasing commitments before starting construction.

The First Nation Bank of Canada has already signed on.

“We are standing officially on Yellow Quill First Nation’s land here in the city of Saskatoon. The first in downtown Saskatoon and the first to take lead in the developments downtown,” said Chief Larry Cachene, Yellow Quill First Nation.

Federation of Saskatchewan Indian Nations (FSIN) Chief Perry Bellegarde applauded the announcement Thursday and conveyed his support of the new urban reserve.

“This is a perfect example of First Nations peoples taking control of their economic destiny,” said Bellegarde.

“By sharing proven methods of development success we, as First Nations peoples, travel a path of greater economic sustainability. And as we do that, we position ourselves for greater self-determination,”

The office complex, located at 240 4th Avenue South, is intended to generate long-term revenue for the First Nation to reinvest into its community.

Bellgarde says there are over 50 urban reserves in place across Saskatchewan and they have shown success.

Yellow Quill First Nation is approximately 195 kilometres east of Saskatoon.


There is no doubt that it's not always about money and you can look at Clayoquot Sound for that. But then again logging the sound wasn't deemed a benefit for Canada which is the difference and why the Trans Mountain Pipeline will be finished with or without the indigenous peoples approval.

The new laws Trudeau wants to institute will never take away the gov'ts right to expropriate land for these types of projects because doing that would allow the natives to shut Canada down at will and then hold it hostage everytime they didn't agree with something any level of gov't did. Something that would lead to the end of the Liberal Party of Canada as we know it and negate any chance of them ever getting elected again for at least a hundred years.

   



Winnipegger @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 4:58 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Mowich Mowich:
The Kinder-Morgan pipeline will be built. There is no justification what-so-ever for FN people to try and stop it simply because they want too.


We'll see. It's not just the First Nations. A lot of folks in BC aren't that crazy about it.

One reason the federal government disallowed Northern Gateway was that it would require expropriating aboriginal land that has never been ceded to the Crown. Part of the Liberal party's base is aboriginal voters. They can't treat them that way. Another reason was exposing a section of virgin land to oil spills. Again, the aboriginal population was extremely concerned about this, and environmentalists were too. Environmentalists are another part of the Liberal base. However, product has to get to market. So twinning the Trans-Mountain pipeline is the obvious solution. It's on land where there's already a pipeline, so no expropriation. Aboriginals can't object, because there's already a pipeline. The existing pipeline has operated since 1953, there has never been a spill, and it currently provides 90% of Vancouver's energy. If there is a spill, it's in an industrialized area, so no virgin wildlife to be spoiled. And infrastructure in Vancouver harbour could deal with it.

Most importantly, arguments have been made, appeals heard, the final decision made. It is going ahead. Any attempt to stop it at this point is a threat to the authority of the federal government of Canada.

That said, I would like to suggest a qualification. Many people have pointed out that bitumen sinks in water. We have no means to clean it up. My suggestion is to only transport oil and synthetic crude on tankers, not dilbit. I'm told there are 5 operating upgraders in Alberta, 40% of all bitumen is upgrade to synthetic crude. If you want to transport dilbit to a refinery in the Vancouver area, then fine, do that. But not on a ship. Only transport synthetic crude on water.

This also solves another problem. Conservatives have complained about cancellation of Energy East. The government didn't do that, it was a business decision. The real reason is Energy East was started when Obama would not allow Keystone XL to proceed. Now Trump has authorized it. There isn't enough oil for all these pipes. Remember, we currently have 3 pipes to tidewater: the old Keystone pipeline connect to line 3 outside Chicago, extends south to the Texas Gulf coast. Existing Trans-Mountain. And line 9 also connects to line 3 outside Chicago, extends northeast through Ontario to Montreal. An extension connects line 9 to an ocean port at Portland Maine. That extension is not rated for dilbit, but can transport natural oil as well as synthetic crude. This means Alberta can transport their product to the Atlantic coast right now, they don't need to build a thing, just turn a valve. Again the catch is, only natural oil and synthetic crude, not dilbit. Add to that new pipelines under construction: Keystone XL and twinning Trans-Mountain. There isn't enough oil for all that plus Energy East. The reason Energy East was cancelled was Keystone XL was approved.

American oil companies have stated their intent to upgrade Canadian dilbit to synthetic crude, export that on ships through the Gulf. Restricting ships in Vancouver harbour to oil and synthetic crude is just consistent. And solved the problem.

Besides, synthetic crude is worth more. Why would you rip-and-ship?

   



BRAH @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:40 am

ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Racists come in all colours, and a bullshit narrative grows. Nice of CBC to post this.

White People Scare PMJT.

   



BRAH @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 5:42 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Mowich Mowich:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:

The Kinder-Morgan pipeline will be built. There is no justification what-so-ever for FN people to try and stop it simply because they want too.


We'll see. It's not just the First Nations. A lot of folks in BC aren't that crazy about it.

The folks in BC who are against the Kinder Morgan pipeline are hypocrites who drive vehicles that run on fuel made from a rainbow of Skittles.

   



DrCaleb @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 7:59 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
I wasn't intending to be obtuse, I was trying to point out that an apology doesn't cut it, despite the "legality" of the actions. Slavery was legal. The Holocaust was legal. Apartheid was legal.

I think most Canadians agree which is why this government is moving towards reconciliation.


Holding those long dead responsible for their deeds isn't going to change anything. Neither is holding me responsible. What more besides an apology, equality, reconciliation, and moving towards honouring it's treaty obligations can Canada offer?

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

"Might"? You can't even bring yourself to acknowledge that there is a problem of racism against indigenous peoples in Canada.


Yes, 'might'. I don't doubt that there are people in Canada experiencing racism. But I look around me, and in my direct team of a dozen or so people, 3 are European (or 'Canadian' if you like. I don't see myself as 'White' even though only something like 33/64ths of me is). Two of the 12 Directors in the building are European. We get a weekly newsletter from the company I work for , showing the dozen or so people hired that week. One or two might be European.

Some people in Canada experience racism, but I don't see it as systemic nor institutional. And, not from me. I don't really deal with many First Nations in my line of work, so I don't see what they experience today. However, working at the Provincial Tax department, I do see how they act towards us. Hateful, resentful, belligerent - those are good adverbs. We are in the way of them selling Cigarettes and gasoline on reserve, and they hate us for it. But taxes must be paid, even if they are exempt.

I did grow up with some First Nations. The local Band had no high school, so they were bused to ours. I saw some people who did discriminate against them, but I also saw they had exactly the same opportunities as the rest of us.

In fact, last night a old friend from that reserve posted something on Facebook on this subject. She couldn't believe how some Ineshenabe were being fooled into thinking Colton Boushie was murdered by a white farmer, and how could they not see Boushie and his friends were the criminals, not the victims. 'Followers, not leaders' she called the FNs that were joining the protests for 'Justice for Boushie'.

So yes, Canada 'might' have a problem with racism against First Nations. But it's not all First Nations people, and it's not all Canadians.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
$1:
It's also telling that you want to hold me responsible for things that happened before I was born, but don't want to hold the family accountable for how they raised the child. When I was growing up, it was more than rude to drive up to someone's house with a rifle and try to steal their stuff. Kids learn things like that from somewhere, either from example or by inaction. That leads to his family bearing some responsibility for him.


Kids do learn things. The kind of things learned on a reserve--where most of the elders were taken from their families to residential schools, is probably a lot different. The elders didn't learn from there parents. They were taken from them and taught by nuns to get the Indian out of them, often beaten and abused. Then sent back. So that's clearly going to create a big schism and you shouldn't expect that their upbringing would be similar to yours.


I understand the family instincts were driven out of these people by a cruel and horrific system. I don't expect them to be like me, or think like me. But I also understand if they want the justice they seek from Canada, then they also have to apply that same Justice.

Kiora Wuttunee, Boushee's girlfriend, was subpoenaed to testify at the trial. She did not show, and had a warrant issued for her arrest. Her father is a former Chief.

Cassidy Cross-Whitstone lied in his statement. His father is also a former Chief.

Basically everyone in that car has a father who was a former chief of that first nation, and every one of those Chiefs has been removed from office for corruption, or was at the same time as the Gerald Stanley trial was proceeding, were themselves on trial for corruption.

I don't want to sound like I'm blaming the victim here, but the fact is that everyone in that vehicle, with the exception of mystery person "Belinda Jackson", has a past with some sort of run in with the law. Except, Gerald Stanley. It doesn't make a death any less tragic, but it does put some perspective on it.

Residential School may very well have played a part in the poor upbringing of people on the Red Pheasant First Nation, but learning by example would be the prime fact it seems. And using Residential schools as the reason for poor behavior only will be valid for so long. If the former Chief wants 'Justice' for his son, perhaps he should conduct himself in the way he wants his world to be. As Ghandi said, "Be the change you wish to see in the World".

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:08 am

Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
$5 dollars a year they signed away their territories for.


Did you read the part about the Coldwater band winning their lawsuit. The Gov't can no longer short change them despite treaties they signed in the past. This judgement gives them the right to seek proper redress for the use of their lands. So I'm imagining that the five bucks the Saskatchewan bands are supposedly getting for their treaty money has been bumped up enough that they can now buy buildings in Saskatoon and Regina and then declare them part of the Reserve.[/quote]

No, it's still five bucks for a lot of bands. Sometimes less. I think this is part of the reason a lot of these bands turn down what appear to be large sums offered by project proponents.

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/sudbury/robinson-huron-treaty-annuities-claim-court-case-1.4303287



$1:
There is no doubt that it's not always about money and you can look at Clayoquot Sound for that. But then again logging the sound wasn't deemed a benefit for Canada which is the difference and why the Trans Mountain Pipeline will be finished with or without the indigenous peoples approval.

The new laws Trudeau wants to institute will never take away the gov'ts right to expropriate land for these types of projects because doing that would allow the natives to shut Canada down at will and then hold it hostage everytime they didn't agree with something any level of gov't did. Something that would lead to the end of the Liberal Party of Canada as we know it and negate any chance of them ever getting elected again for at least a hundred years.


Yes the First Nations still exist under the Crown, as far as the courts are concerned. But, at least in BC, it's mostly unceded land, so it's a complex situation that is basically evolving based on successive SCoC decisions.

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:28 am

DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Holding those long dead responsible for their deeds isn't going to change anything. Neither is holding me responsible. What more besides an apology, equality, reconciliation, and moving towards honouring it's treaty obligations can Canada offer?


Canada isn't long dead. It's an ongoing entity. The various agents that prosecuted Canada's laws--those that actually ripped the children from their mothers, for example--may not be legally responsible, but the nation is. An apology is great--to me that's what's officially starts the road to reconciliation.



$1:
Yes, 'might'. I don't doubt that there are people in Canada experiencing racism. But I look around me, and in my direct team of a dozen or so people, 3 are European (or 'Canadian' if you like. I don't see myself as 'White' even though only something like 33/64ths of me is). Two of the 12 Directors in the building are European. We get a weekly newsletter from the company I work for , showing the dozen or so people hired that week. One or two might be European.


I think denial of the racism that First Nations people face everyday is a big part of the problem. You are surrounded by it on this site--posts everywhere of barely concealed sentiments that Indians are nothing but savages and beggars--and yet you look around and say "I just don't see it."

I just shake my head and think what a long, long way there is to go.

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:33 am

BRAH BRAH:
The folks in BC who are against the Kinder Morgan pipeline are hypocrites who drive vehicles that run on fuel made from a rainbow of Skittles.


I've seen V8s parked at pipeline protests.

   



CharlesAnthony @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:38 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
The various agents that prosecuted Canada's laws--those that actually ripped the children from their mothers, for example--may not be legally responsible, but ...
... maybe they are legally responsible.
The proceeds of crime can be confiscated and certain crimes have no statute of limitations.

The Canadian "solution" to native disputes may be as simple as publicly identifying the heirs of the criminals and letting them dance their fortunes away in the court of public opinon.

----

The "reconciliation" game is just a delay tactic to avoid public disclosure of responsible parties.

   



DrCaleb @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 10:46 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Holding those long dead responsible for their deeds isn't going to change anything. Neither is holding me responsible. What more besides an apology, equality, reconciliation, and moving towards honouring it's treaty obligations can Canada offer?


Canada isn't long dead. It's an ongoing entity. The various agents that prosecuted Canada's laws--those that actually ripped the children from their mothers, for example--may not be legally responsible, but the nation is. An apology is great--to me that's what's officially starts the road to reconciliation.


No, Canada isn't dead, but the people who made those decisions and who carried them out are. For the most part. The Canada that is here, now, is the one that wants the reconciliation. But I imagine many are like me, we acknowledge the sins of our forefathers, but we don't take blame for their decisions. It takes two to reconcile, and when I see pictures like on previous pages that some don't trust me because I'm not the right colour, it disheartens me.

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
$1:
Yes, 'might'. I don't doubt that there are people in Canada experiencing racism. But I look around me, and in my direct team of a dozen or so people, 3 are European (or 'Canadian' if you like. I don't see myself as 'White' even though only something like 33/64ths of me is). Two of the 12 Directors in the building are European. We get a weekly newsletter from the company I work for , showing the dozen or so people hired that week. One or two might be European.


I think denial of the racism that First Nations people face everyday is a big part of the problem. You are surrounded by it on this site--posts everywhere of barely concealed sentiments that Indians are nothing but savages and beggars--and yet you look around and say "I just don't see it."

I just shake my head and think what a long, long way there is to go.


I don't deny they face it. I just don't believe it's systemic or widespread.

Even here, yes, there are some who are bigoted or prejudiced. Which is why I usually skip their posts. But it's always predictably the same ones who are prejudiced against every group outside their own, not all of us. I remember one FN poster who pretty much hated every whitie. I don't see every First Nations person that way.

A lot of minorities face hate, but I think it's generally from a select group that pretty much hate everyone and everything.

   



Coach85 @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:06 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:

I think denial of the racism that First Nations people face everyday is a big part of the problem. You are surrounded by it on this site--posts everywhere of barely concealed sentiments that Indians are nothing but savages and beggars--and yet you look around and say "I just don't see it."

I just shake my head and think what a long, long way there is to go.


That's a two-way street.

Anti-white racism is wide-spread within our First Nations communities.

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:10 am

DrCaleb DrCaleb:
No, Canada isn't dead, but the people who made those decisions and who carried them out are.

Well, not necessarily. The 60s scoop was the 1960s, not the 1860s. The last residential school closed in 1996.

$1:
and when I see pictures like on previous pages that some don't trust me because I'm not the right colour, it disheartens me.


Ah muffin. Multiply that by about a billion and you'll have an inkling what it's like to be native in Canada.


$1:
Even here, yes, there are some who are bigoted or prejudiced. Which is why I usually skip their posts. But it's always predictably the same ones who are prejudiced against every group outside their own, not all of us. I remember one FN poster who pretty much hated every whitie. I don't see every First Nations person that way.
[/quote][/quote]

You don't skip their posts though. You specifically mentioned one--the picture of the Indian holding the sign. As a matter of fact, it seems to have had a particular effect on you. So to say that you are blind to all that is just being disingenuous really.

   



Zipperfish @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:11 am

Coach85 Coach85:
That's a two-way street.

Anti-white racism is wide-spread within our First Nations communities.


Yes, let's talk about the real victims here. White people.

   



ShepherdsDog @ Fri Feb 16, 2018 11:38 am

Anyone who has to suffer racism is a victim. Victimhood isn't determined by race. Millions of whites were butchered wholesale for the simple fact that they worshipped the same god as their butchers on a different day. If you want to equate treaty violations in BC with what happened in Stanley's yard, and trivialize what people went through just because they have lighter skin, then you're just a big a racist as those you are condemning. Speaking of being disingenuous or hypocritical.

   



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