Canada's vs. America's involvement in WW1
1964-D-Peace @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:15 pm
As a companion to the thread Canada's vs. America's involvement in WW2 and in part to commemorate the recent Poppy Quarter...
..I figured it might be an interesting experiment to touch on this subject as well, given Canada's proportionally-greater commitment in this war.
Could certainly use more info on what the "Canada's 100 Days" concept means.
Bonglord @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:28 pm
Ill hand you a flame shield here. Sorry no American bashing but Canadian bashing is all good.
Mustang1 @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 7:34 pm
1964-D-Peace 1964-D-Peace:
Could certainly use more info on what the "Canada's 100 Days" concept means.
What kind of information would you like?
1964-D-Peace @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 8:30 pm
*graciously accepts shield and cautiously hides behind it*
Didn't think I would need this for a 90-year old war, but I guess you can never be too careful these days....
*cowers*
Mustang1 Mustang1:
What kind of information would you like?
Well, um,... you see,... uh, for starters,........ What IS "Canada's 100 Days"?
Don't get me wrong, I have reviewed a little about WWI Canadian history recently -- I usually make it a habit to study the history behind the coins I buy or import. But I figure that a source from the Source is probably a little more reliable and unfiltered.
Bear in mind the education system that I've gone through (essentially raised in New York City public schools) -- and what little is actually discussed about this war is unsurprisingly written from an Amerocentric perspective [almost exclusively].
canadian1971 @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:12 pm
Here's a little...and a link
$1:
The German Offensive: Spring 1918
The end of 1917 also saw the Russian war effort disintegrate due to revolution. With Russia out of the war, German forces could be united in their attack on the Western Front. The American troops would not be a significant factor as they were not prepared to assume fighting duties. Although the U.S. had declared war in April of 1917, they were not prepared for war. By the spring of 1918 they were finally prepared to, primarily, relieve elements of the French army to the north east of Paris and allow the French to move toward the attacking Germans to the north-west.
The Germans had 178 divisions ready to attack by February of 1918. Their “new” tactics would involve using storm troops – a lesson learned from the Canadians at Vimy Ridge – attacking the weaker sections of the allied lines. The main body of troops would move in later. On March 21, 2,500 guns opened up on a 50 mile front of the British line. This successfully pushed the British back beyond the Somme River. Germans also attacked and successfully pushed back the French forces located to the south of Arras.
The Canadians expected to be next, as the British forces to their left and the French to their right had already been pushed back.
The following is taken from Arthur Currie’s speech to his troops in anticipation of this German offensive:
“Today the fate of the British Empire hangs in the balance. I place my trust in the Canadian Corps knowing that where Canadians are engaged, there can be no giving way. You will advance or fall where you stand facing the enemy. To those who will fall, I say, you will not die but step into immortality. Your mothers will not lament your fate but will be proud to have born such sons. Your names will be revered for ever and ever by your grateful country and God will take you unto Himself. I trust you to fight as you have ever fought – with all your strength, with all your determination, with all your tranquil courage. On many a hard fought field of battle you have overcome the enemy. With God’s help you shall achieve victory once more.”
It soon became apparent that no attack would come. The Germans had purposely avoided engaging the Canadian Corps. It was believed by the German High Command that any attack on the Canadian line could easily result in a dangerous “slowing down” of the offensive if not halting it altogether. The Canadians had never been defeated and seemed unlikely to be beaten back within any reasonable time-frame. Haig desired the Canadians to work as a part of the British line in a defensive manner but was swayed by Currie to have the Canadians go on the offensive.
It was realized that the Germans knew the Canadians to be the Allied storm troops – their leading of any offensive was expected. The Canadians employed trickery to convince Germans that they were now to be stationed back in Flanders and this led the Germans to believe Flanders to be the site of the next allied attack. The Canadians were actually moving in total secrecy - even from the rest of their allies - to Amiens.
The end of 1917 also saw the Russian war effort disintegrate due to revolution. With Russia out of the war, German forces could be united in their attack on the Western Front. The American troops would not be a significant factor as they were not prepared to assume fighting duties. Although the U.S. had declared war in April of 1917, they were not prepared for war. By the spring of 1918 they were finally prepared to, primarily, relieve elements of the French army to the north east of Paris and allow the French to move toward the attacking Germans to the north-west.
The Germans had 178 divisions ready to attack by February of 1918. Their “new” tactics would involve using storm troops – a lesson learned from the Canadians at Vimy Ridge – attacking the weaker sections of the allied lines. The main body of troops would move in later. On March 21, 2,500 guns opened up on a 50 mile front of the British line. This successfully pushed the British back beyond the Somme River. Germans also attacked and successfully pushed back the French forces located to the south of Arras.
The Canadians expected to be next, as the British forces to their left and the French to their right had already been pushed back.
The following is taken from Arthur Currie’s speech to his troops in anticipation of this German offensive:
“Today the fate of the British Empire hangs in the balance. I place my trust in the Canadian Corps knowing that where Canadians are engaged, there can be no giving way. You will advance or fall where you stand facing the enemy. To those who will fall, I say, you will not die but step into immortality. Your mothers will not lament your fate but will be proud to have born such sons. Your names will be revered for ever and ever by your grateful country and God will take you unto Himself. I trust you to fight as you have ever fought – with all your strength, with all your determination, with all your tranquil courage. On many a hard fought field of battle you have overcome the enemy. With God’s help you shall achieve victory once more.”
It soon became apparent that no attack would come. The Germans had purposely avoided engaging the Canadian Corps. It was believed by the German High Command that any attack on the Canadian line could easily result in a dangerous “slowing down” of the offensive if not halting it altogether. The Canadians had never been defeated and seemed unlikely to be beaten back within any reasonable time-frame. Haig desired the Canadians to work as a part of the British line in a defensive manner but was swayed by Currie to have the Canadians go on the offensive.
It was realized that the Germans knew the Canadians to be the Allied storm troops – their leading of any offensive was expected. The Canadians employed trickery to convince Germans that they were now to be stationed back in Flanders and this led the Germans to believe Flanders to be the site of the next allied attack. The Canadians were actually moving in total secrecy - even from the rest of their allies - to Amiens.
And here's a link for more..
The Meanest Bastards on the Western Front
canadian1971 @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 10:40 pm
Tell me those boys didn't have it figured out eh.......
Canada's General A. McNaughton's quote, referring to the armistice, speaks volumes:
$1:
"What bloody fools! We had them on the run. Now we shall have to do it all over again in 25 years."
- General Arthur Currie, Commander of the Canadian Corps
$1:
The peace, when it comes, must last for many many years. We do not want to have to do this thing all over again in another 15 or 20 years. If that is to be the case, German military power must be irretrievably crushed. This is the end we must attain if we have the will and guts to see it through."
1964-D-Peace @ Sat Mar 26, 2005 11:33 pm
OMG! You're right! That's quite some foresight!
Thank you, by the way. This is the kind of information I'm looking for. The account itself was very moving and was well enough written to have me at the edge of my seat. That is up until the lamentable end, which reminded me that crap from higher commands seems to be a long-standing tradition
$1:
On November 5, the Canadians would liberate Valenciennes. Although the Canadians met with success, the British forces were not as fortunate. It was decided that the British would boost their morale and attend the liberation ceremony at Valenciennes. The people of Valenciennes would not be allowed to honour those who had actually liberated their city - the Canadians were not included.
Now the article mentions Vimy Ridge which, if what I read is correct, was where a previous victory for the Canadians that officially earned them their fame as not only being a formidable force, but one that was strategic, well-organized and effective.
canadian1971 @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 7:56 am
$1:
Now the article mentions Vimy Ridge which, if what I read is correct, was where a previous victory for the Canadians that officially earned them their fame as not only being a formidable force, but one that was strategic, well-organized and effective.
The simple truth of the matter is this...Canada could not afford the lose of men like the British and French could.....The British at the Somme lost almost as many men in 1 day, than the Canadian Corps lost during the entire war. They were willing to try something different than the British and French...the result...well...see this sites name!
$1:
It has often been said that Canada’s sons left their home as young colonials but returned as Canadians. Vimy is indeed the birthplace of “Canadian Nationhood”. The price was heavy: 10,500 casualties, including 3,598 dead.
"They left as boys, never to return as men."
Canada's part in WW1 was HUGE for such a small country(8 million at the time)...they earned the respect of all the allies, and were feared by the Germans...in all of WW1, the Germans could never throw the Canadians back....later in the war, German High Command just avoided the Canadians if they could.....that to me says it all!
P.S. keep asking question...I'm a buff on Canada in the 1st war! If you notice a mistake...please point it out! Only human after all!
Vimy Ridge
EyeBrock @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 9:57 am
Don't forget 1971, that at least 70% of the CEF was born in the UK and Eire, just as a side issue.
Therefore a huge chunk of the guys at Vimy, although sporting Maple Leaf cap badges, were indeed Brits. Brits who I might add , chose to stay in Canada and fight for Canada, not the UK.
I don't know if you'd get such a nationalistic response from our multicultural society today.
1964-D-Peace @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 1:00 pm
$1:
P.S. keep asking question...I'm a buff on Canada in the 1st war!
Kewl! Blank check to ask more questions! Would definitely help to keep us neck-and-neck with our WWII sister thread, something I feel is very important given that (from what I read on your link's home page) there doesn't appear to be as much awareness about Canadian (and yes, Cana-British too) involvement in the Great War. Could it be because of the age or the overshadowing by WWII or some other reason?
Unless I misunderstood the article, it would seem that a lot of strategic aspects of modern warfare were conjured (or at least readapted) in the battle of Vimy Ridge. More power to the Canadian Expeditionary Force if it was willing to try intelligence gathering, platooning and actually wearing away German defensive positions in lieu of just:
$1:
“let’s throw bodies in the path of machine gun bullets”
Now before I dwell further on Vimy, or backtrack to Somme or Ypres, quick question on equipment....
According to my studies, the standard issue Ross Rifle, while presumably powerful and accurate, was badly suited for the kind of warfare encountered:
http://www.firstworldwar.com/atoz/rossrifle.htm
http://www.mysteriesofcanada.com/Military/ross_rifle_scandal.htm
http://world.guns.ru/rifle/rfl24-e.htm
Now given this, and the possibility that this gun aggravated the already horrific casualties during Ypres, why then was its use consistently defended throughout most of the war? Or why wasn't another model released to improve on its shortcomings?
$1:
I don't know if you'd get such a nationalistic response from our multicultural society today.
For an offensive campaign, you're probably right. Diversity brings about diverse viewpoints that may thwart an otherwise unilateral crusade against a stubborn personification of villainy (or in the case of WWI, just the plain ol' "Huns", neverminding the Austrians or the Ottoman Turks or the deadly recklessness of Britain, France and Russia).
For a defensive campaign, however, the reasoning can turn muddy as I'm sure no one likes their home being invaded.
RoyalHighlander @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 2:20 pm
My former regt The Black watch has many of those names mentiones in the 100 Dyas article as battle honours..terrific link too i maught add.. Also great thread here to.. no infighting,,, nice to see
1964-D-Peace @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:08 pm
Thank you. Just trying to keep the peace. [no pun]
canadian1971 @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 3:15 pm
$1:
why then was its use consistently defended throughout most of the war?
I think the Ross was defended so much simply because it was a Canadian weapon, and the people doing the defending didn't have to try and use it! The soldiers would throw it away and take an Enfield if they had the chance!
$1:
I don't know if you'd get such a nationalistic response from our multicultural society today.
I think you be surprised, if we felt a common threat.
P.S.
$1:
Thank you. Just trying to keep the peace. [no pun]
I love pun jokes!
1964-D-Peace @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:12 pm
$1:
I love pun jokes!
This looks like a good spot to insert a hearty "LOL". ^_^
As far as what you say about the Ross goes, I suppose we can say that's a "nationalistic response" getting the better of us. Reminds me a little of accounts of M16's being tossed for AK-47's in real combat conditions. Perhaps I'm not looking at in the way that Sam Hughes did, but I'd much prefer lower casualties than simply propagandizing some weapon. The latter choice just reeks of advertising.
*raises hand* Next question, please....
I was just about to inquire on Ypres when it suddenly hit me....
WWI started sometime in July of 1914. The first Canadian forces landed in France in December of 1914. But my source simply jumps the gun to April of 1915, where the horrific battle in Ypres, Belgium began. Sure this looks like the first major engagement for the CEF and sure WWI wasn't exactly known for its fast-paced action.
But there must be records and chronologues of interest that account for that 4-month gap....
1964-D-Peace @ Sun Mar 27, 2005 5:17 pm
Hmmm,... as of this writing, we're at 13 replies / 170 views, while our sister thread is at 10/180.
Not bad at all. Glad to see people really are interested in this topic. I wonder how far we can take it? ^_^