Canadians losing touch with military history
tsotas @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:20 pm
I feel so insignificant
BartSimpson @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:22 pm
Schleihauf Schleihauf:
tsotas tsotas:
I'm proud of the fact Canada doesn't take glory in it's military history. It would be nice if we never had to use our military at all.
You're proud of the fact that a lot of Canadians are uneducated about the people who payed the ultiamte price for our freedom?
Your assessment is painfully accurate.
BartSimpson @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:31 pm
tsotas tsotas:
I feel so insignificant
Join the Marines. For the rest of your life you'll never have that feeling ever again. Guaranteed.
President Ronald Reagan President Ronald Reagan:
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.
tsotas @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 2:40 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
tsotas tsotas:
I feel so insignificant
Join the Marines. For the rest of your life you'll never have that feeling ever again. Guaranteed.
President Ronald Reagan President Ronald Reagan:
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.
The Canadian Marines have that problem.
Tricks @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:01 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
tsotas tsotas:
I feel so insignificant
Join the Marines. For the rest of your life you'll never have that feeling ever again. Guaranteed.
President Ronald Reagan President Ronald Reagan:
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.
stratos @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:01 pm
"I'm proud of the fact Canada doesn't take glory in it's military history. It would be nice if we never had to use our military at all."
"Why? I'm proud of the fact we are a peaceful nation. Do you want us to be like Sparta?"
This coming from someone who only a few hours later starts a thread about wanting Canada to have nukes. That they are sick of Canada being a joke Military, a push over ect.....
you really need some mental help and soon. You don't even know what you stand for let alone what you want your country to be like.
BartSimpson @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:14 pm
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
So what if Britain never got involved and or what if France fell you really think the Germans would have been that much more honourable?
The whole war, on every side, was a raging clusterf**k.
It was the most pitiful and senseless war ever fought.
Sorry to disappoint you, but it was as much the fault of the British and French as it was the Germans and Austrians.
Russia picked a fight with Austria over Serbia which dragged Germany into the fray. It is argued that the French then had to go help the Russians because of the Franco-Russian Military Convention of 1892, but when you read the terms of that treaty it only includes mutual assistance if there is any German aggression. France could've easily stayed out of the war on the grounds that German participation in the war was via a treaty obligation with Austria and was the predictable result of Russia coming to the aid of the Serbs - whom the French didn't care about. Summary: France got into this war because they wanted to. When the Germans offered the French an opportunity to stay out of the war they arrogantly gave the non-answer that they would act according to their interests. In the diplo-speak of the time, that was an open admission of French plans to enter the war against Germany. Quite arguably, the French answer to the German missive was a French decalration of war on Germany and that is how Winston Churchill elected to read it at the time.
Note that Britain did not enter the war over the German 'attack' on France and it was because the French had declared war with their response to the Germans. It was only with the invasion of Belgium that Britain entered the war, but again, they declared war before receiving the response of the Kaiser to their ultimatum that was based upon their obligations in the 1839 Treaty of London.
Sadly, it is just a footnote in history books that the Kaiser had agreed to the British terms to leave Belgium alone but by the timethe response was drafted the British had all too eagerly joined the war.
French and British animus towards the growing German nation was such that the opportunity the war afforded them was just too great to pass up.
The French were chomping at the bit to avenge the can of Whoopass the Germans opened on them in the French war of aggression we call the Franco-Prussian War.
The British, after the Anglo-German Naval Manouvres of 1913, could've opted to stay out of the war as they were enjoying relatively good relations with a Germany that was actively seeking naval parity and closer diplomatic with Britain. Going in to 1914 Germany saw Britain as a potential friend and not an adversary.
The First Sea Lord Admiral John Fisher (from 1906 to 1910) set the tone of the Royal Navy and aimed his reimagined Fleets squarely at the Germans. This policy, even in the amiable times of 1913, had the British Navy and Government eyeing the Germans as foes even while the Germans believed a rapproachment was in progress.
In sum, clear minds would've made it all a forgettable incident in history.
Too bad it was petty, greedy, and avaricious men who were running things.
BartSimpson @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:15 pm
tsotas tsotas:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
tsotas tsotas:
I feel so insignificant
Join the Marines. For the rest of your life you'll never have that feeling ever again. Guaranteed.
President Ronald Reagan President Ronald Reagan:
Some people spend an entire lifetime wondering if they made a difference. The Marines don't have that problem.
The Canadian Marines have that problem.
I don't believe so, but what matters is what you believe. Come join the US Marine Corps, then.
bootlegga @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:27 pm
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
So what if Britain never got involved and or what if France fell you really think the Germans would have been that much more honourable? France had every right to be crossed at the Germans the war was primarily fought on their soil and was largely ruined and destroyed. It was Germany who were the ones who declared war on France and helped seal their fate in the war in the first place. They also marched through neutral Belgium that was neutral country. Even look at the radical terms Austria imposed and Serbia and most allegations were just speculation. Germany helped prop up Austria as well. They helped push forward a war.
The Germans never wanted peace they wanted a war as did everyone and that is what happened. The Germans lost the war in 1915. Most of their chances of winning or taking out France quickly were gone especially as it turned into a stalemate. It wouldn’t be until 1918 they had another chance at wining but even then not really. Most of their best soldiers were then gone and with the Americans starting to come then they were finally done but still they fought on dragging it further against much public dissatisfaction.
If the war had ended right away I bet an armistice would have been reached and German forces could have pulled out and all sides would have not had huge overbearing economic consequences. But Germany held on for not wanting to lose and felt the need to drag it on to kill a few more French and British to prove their superiority while they were there. They even poison gassed our soldiers and broke another treaty that was signed prior.
I have no sympathy for Germany or the harsh conditions imposed onto them at Versailles they brought much of it onto themselves and I cannot say they didn't deserve it. It was mostly the Kaiser and other elitists in the high command who wanted Germany to keep fighting and it was Germans who revolted against his war of madness and finally put an end to it. Germany could have easily declared a cease-fire or negotiated an end to fighting early on but they chose not too. If they had done so on a position of greater strength then I doubt France would have imposed the same conditions like in 1919 and Britain might have not been so keen to listen to France either. I doubt the sum they would have had to pay would have been the $200 billion US in today’s dollars either.
The Germans never wanted peace they wanted a war as did everyone and that is what happened. The Germans lost the war in 1915. Most of their chances of winning or taking out France quickly were gone especially as it turned into a stalemate. It wouldn’t be until 1918 they had another chance at wining but even then not really. Most of their best soldiers were then gone and with the Americans starting to come then they were finally done but still they fought on dragging it further against much public dissatisfaction.
If the war had ended right away I bet an armistice would have been reached and German forces could have pulled out and all sides would have not had huge overbearing economic consequences. But Germany held on for not wanting to lose and felt the need to drag it on to kill a few more French and British to prove their superiority while they were there. They even poison gassed our soldiers and broke another treaty that was signed prior.
I have no sympathy for Germany or the harsh conditions imposed onto them at Versailles they brought much of it onto themselves and I cannot say they didn't deserve it. It was mostly the Kaiser and other elitists in the high command who wanted Germany to keep fighting and it was Germans who revolted against his war of madness and finally put an end to it. Germany could have easily declared a cease-fire or negotiated an end to fighting early on but they chose not too. If they had done so on a position of greater strength then I doubt France would have imposed the same conditions like in 1919 and Britain might have not been so keen to listen to France either. I doubt the sum they would have had to pay would have been the $200 billion US in today’s dollars either.
You obviously don't know much in the way of history.
France was pissed at Germany before the war ever started because they got their asses handed to them in 1870 by Bismarck and Prussia. That war unifed the Germanic states into Germany. WW1 was all about revenge for the French, who insisted on brutal and humiliating terms simply because the Germans had done so after their victory in 1870. Imagine that, a nation holding a grudge for over 40 years...
And the British Were just as guilty of wanting war as the French, simply because they wanted to knock their rivals, the Germans (especially their navy), down a peg or two. In case you weren't aware, there was a massive arms race prior to WW1 between the UK and Germany. It was so bad that the British asked Canada to pay for the construction of 2 capital ships. Laurier instead created the Royal Canadian Navy. Entering the war to protect Belgium was an easy excuse to get in on the party.
That of course does not mean the Germans were innocents in this either. I'm sure on some level, Kaiser Wilhelm felt less of man when he compared his toys to those of his cousins in the UK (the Windsors). Had he listened to Bismarck in stead of firing him (focus on industry and economy instead of military and emipre), WW1 might not have happened. After Wilhelm sacked Bismarck, it was only a matter of time before Wilhelm blundered his way into war. Wilhelm actually asked his generals if it was possible to slow troop mobilization and try to de-escalate the crisis (preventing the war) after the Austro-Hungarian declaration of war, but was told if he did, that the France would have a military advantage. so when the French refused to back down, he was 'forced' to follow through with the Schlieffen Plan.
But the biggest reason WW1 happened was due to the interlocking alliances everyone had. When Austria-Hungary declared on Serbia, they insisted Russia defend them as per their treaty. Russia declared war on Austria, Germany was forced by their pact with Austria to declare on Russia, France was forced to declare on Germany, etc. What should have been a minor disagreement snowballed into one of the biggest conflicts in human history.
And think about this, if Germany had not been bankrupted and totally humiliated by the Versailles Treaty, WW2 likely wouldn't have happened. France and the UK insisted on near total disarmament of Germany, loss of its empire, dismantling of most of its industry, years of occupation (paid for by the Germans themselves), etc. And when the effects of all this meant that Germany couldn't pay reparations, the government was forced to print money hand over fist and devalue the Deutschemark, destroying the German economy in the mid-20s. This gave Hitler and his group ample 'evidence' with which they launched themselves into power and started the largest and deadliest conflict in human history.
Then compare the effects of what happened after WW2 and wonder why there was no WW3...instead of destroying Germany, Italy and Japan, they were punished and then welcomed back into the ranks of civilized nations. There won't be a Hitler Jr from any of those three nations that is the impetus behind the next world war.
Clogeroo @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:29 pm
$1:
The whole war, on every side, was a raging clusterf**k.
It was the most pitiful and senseless war ever fought.
Sorry to disappoint you, but it was as much the fault of the British and French as it was the Germans and Austrians.
Russia picked a fight with Austria over Serbia which dragged Germany into the fray. It is argued that the French then had to go help the Russians because of the Franco-Russian Military Convention of 1892, but when you read the terms of that treaty it only includes mutual assistance if there is any German aggression. France could've easily stayed out of the war on the grounds that German participation in the war was via a treaty obligation with Austria and was the predictable result of Russia coming to the aid of the Serbs - whom the French didn't care about. Summary: France got into this war because they wanted to. When the Germans offered the French an opportunity to stay out of the war they arrogantly gave the non-answer that they would act according to their interests. In the diplo-speak of the time, that was an open admission of French plans to enter the war against Germany. Quite arguably, the French answer to the German missive was a French decalration of war on Germany and that is how Winston Churchill elected to read it at the time.
Note that Britain did not enter the war over the German 'attack' on France and it was because the French had declared war with their response to the Germans. It was only with the invasion of Belgium that Britain entered the war, but again, they declared war before receiving the response of the Kaiser to their ultimatum that was based upon their obligations in the 1839 Treaty of London.
Sadly, it is just a footnote in history books that the Kaiser had agreed to the British terms to leave Belgium alone but by the timethe response was drafted the British had all too eagerly joined the war.
French and British animus towards the growing German nation was such that the opportunity the war afforded them was just too great to pass up.
The French were chomping at the bit to avenge the can of Whoopass the Germans opened on them in the French war of aggression we call the Franco-Prussian War.
The British, after the Anglo-German Naval Manouvres of 1913, could've opted to stay out of the war as they were enjoying relatively good relations with a Germany that was actively seeking naval parity and closer diplomatic with Britain. Going in to 1914 Germany saw Britain as a potential friend and not an adversary.
The First Sea Lord Admiral John Fisher (from 1906 to 1910) set the tone of the Royal Navy and aimed his reimagined Fleets squarely at the Germans. This policy, even in the amiable times of 1913, had the British Navy and Government eyeing the Germans as foes even while the Germans believed a rapproachment was in progress.
In sum, clear minds would've made it all a forgettable incident in history.
Too bad it was petty, greedy, and avaricious men who were running things.
It was the most pitiful and senseless war ever fought.
Sorry to disappoint you, but it was as much the fault of the British and French as it was the Germans and Austrians.
Russia picked a fight with Austria over Serbia which dragged Germany into the fray. It is argued that the French then had to go help the Russians because of the Franco-Russian Military Convention of 1892, but when you read the terms of that treaty it only includes mutual assistance if there is any German aggression. France could've easily stayed out of the war on the grounds that German participation in the war was via a treaty obligation with Austria and was the predictable result of Russia coming to the aid of the Serbs - whom the French didn't care about. Summary: France got into this war because they wanted to. When the Germans offered the French an opportunity to stay out of the war they arrogantly gave the non-answer that they would act according to their interests. In the diplo-speak of the time, that was an open admission of French plans to enter the war against Germany. Quite arguably, the French answer to the German missive was a French decalration of war on Germany and that is how Winston Churchill elected to read it at the time.
Note that Britain did not enter the war over the German 'attack' on France and it was because the French had declared war with their response to the Germans. It was only with the invasion of Belgium that Britain entered the war, but again, they declared war before receiving the response of the Kaiser to their ultimatum that was based upon their obligations in the 1839 Treaty of London.
Sadly, it is just a footnote in history books that the Kaiser had agreed to the British terms to leave Belgium alone but by the timethe response was drafted the British had all too eagerly joined the war.
French and British animus towards the growing German nation was such that the opportunity the war afforded them was just too great to pass up.
The French were chomping at the bit to avenge the can of Whoopass the Germans opened on them in the French war of aggression we call the Franco-Prussian War.
The British, after the Anglo-German Naval Manouvres of 1913, could've opted to stay out of the war as they were enjoying relatively good relations with a Germany that was actively seeking naval parity and closer diplomatic with Britain. Going in to 1914 Germany saw Britain as a potential friend and not an adversary.
The First Sea Lord Admiral John Fisher (from 1906 to 1910) set the tone of the Royal Navy and aimed his reimagined Fleets squarely at the Germans. This policy, even in the amiable times of 1913, had the British Navy and Government eyeing the Germans as foes even while the Germans believed a rapproachment was in progress.
In sum, clear minds would've made it all a forgettable incident in history.
Too bad it was petty, greedy, and avaricious men who were running things.
I never said the French and the British never played their hand but don't make me feel sorry for poor Germany or they never had a chance to end a war. Or could have done so prior to 1918.
Yes the Kaiser and Germany were I think almost surprised that Britain joined the war because of what happened in Belgium. You are right they would have probably left knowing this or Britain would get involved from it. But in the wave of the week of declarations and simplistic communication Britain declared war.
Like I said earlier everyone really wanted a war or a chance to kill each other for their own reasons not so much what was said on the table. But I think it all could have ended sooner if everyone swallowed their pride and called the whole thing off. Mind you if the war only has lasted a year people's arms would probably grow from it and then we would have had most likely a world war at a future date.
It almost seems like this war would have happened no matter what since Europe was set on killing each other to prove themselves of greater excellence. Although Britain could have stayed out of it and would have been the smart thing to do. But in some ways if France was taken over and Russia defeated Germany would become a dominant power in Europe then would see tension between the German Empire and British Empire either at home or in the colonies abroad.
Clogeroo @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:33 pm
$1:
You obviously don't know much in the way of history.
I'm fully aware of all this but all sides are to blame and I'm not going to feel sorry for Germany and what happened after the war to them.
BartSimpson @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:46 pm
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
I never said the French and the British never played their hand but don't make me feel sorry for poor Germany
All-out hatred of the Germans (nee 'Nazis') seems to be the last acceptable bigotry and too many history books are rife with it.
Had Winston Churchill been PM in 1914 the Germans may well have been British and Canadian allies - something that would've inevitably affected your perception of them whilst growing up.
Churchill, a veteran of the Boer War, was not in a hurry to enter WW1 and a delay of just twelve hours to allow the Kaiser's response to reach London would've averted war between Germany and the UK.
Twelve hours.
Clogeroo @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 3:53 pm
$1:
All-out hatred of the Germans (nee 'Nazis') seems to be the last acceptable bigotry and too many history books are rife with it.
Had Winston Churchill been PM in 1914 the Germans may well have been British and Canadian allies - something that would've inevitably affected your perception of them whilst growing up.
Churchill, a veteran of the Boer War, was not in a hurry to enter WW1 and a delay of just twelve hours to allow the Kaiser's response to reach London would've averted war between Germany and the UK.
Twelve hours.
So what? Many in Britain still felt competition from Germany.
I guess if France held it's ground by itself which I doubt it would have been able to do on it's own then maybe Europe could have just killed each other and ended the war while Britain hurried along with their empire. Or maybe the Germans would be busy with Russia in some type of clash. But I think a war would have happened anyway unless we did become "freinds" with them but I find that unrealistic considering the attitudes at the time and the loss of British manufacturing to the Germans. Even a French or Russian significant victory over Germany would do us no favours. But anyway who knows what would have happened. But what is done is done and the effects of policy leading up caused this to happen.
BartSimpson @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:03 pm
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
I'm fully aware of all this but all sides are to blame and I'm not going to feel sorry for Germany and what happened after the war to them.
You are missing the lesson of history.
What happened to Germany after the war?
First, the British and French reneged on their promise in the Armistice of 11/11/1918 to negotiate a fair and equitable peace and instead forced the Germans to surrender at Versailles.
In this the British and French were LIARS - are you with me here?
Then in 1922 France and Belgium, over the protests of England, invaded a defenseless Germany.
Was that in your history books at school?
How about the three-day plundering right the French declared when they invaded the Ruhr? Yes, for three days the French let their soldiers rape, pillage, and plunder the Germans who were at their mercy.
They did the same damned thing at the end of WW2 even though for most of that war France was allied with Germany.
So don't feel sorry for the Germans if you don't want to. Fine with me.
But don't let yourself be duped into thinking the Germans just spontaneously went to war be it in WW1 or WW2. France had one hell of a lot to do with it. Both times.
Scrappy @ Thu Apr 05, 2007 4:08 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Clogeroo Clogeroo:
I'm fully aware of all this but all sides are to blame and I'm not going to feel sorry for Germany and what happened after the war to them.
You are missing the lesson of history.
What happened to Germany after the war?
First, the British and French reneged on their promise in the Armistice of 11/11/1918 to negotiate a fair and equitable peace and instead forced the Germans to surrender at Versailles.
In this the British and French were LIARS - are you with me here?
Then in 1922 France and Belgium, over the protests of England, invaded a defenseless Germany.
Was that in your history books at school?
How about the three-day plundering right the French declared when they invaded the Ruhr? Yes, for three days the French let their soldiers rape, pillage, and plunder the Germans who were at their mercy.
They did the same damned thing at the end of WW2 even though for most of that war France was allied with Germany.
So don't feel sorry for the Germans if you don't want to. Fine with me.
But don't let yourself be duped into thinking the Germans just spontaneously went to war be it in WW1 or WW2. France had one hell of a lot to do with it. Both times.
[/color Bart your post reminds me of what the French are up to in the Horn of Africa.[color=darkblue]