How do the Yanks think they won the war of 1812
Lemmy @ Mon May 21, 2012 6:23 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Ditto.
In the USA the Battle of New Orleans is presented as a great (although irrelevant) victory when in fact the battle was between a superior army that made a lot of mistakes and an inferior army that accidentally did a number of things right.
In the USA the Battle of New Orleans is presented as a great (although irrelevant) victory when in fact the battle was between a superior army that made a lot of mistakes and an inferior army that accidentally did a number of things right.
In its totality, the Battle of New Orleans was a colossal DEFEAT for the Americans. The battle produced a folk hero...a folk hero who rode that popularity to the White House and became probably the foulest character to ever achieve the nation's highest office. America would have been better off to have lost that battle. Then the name Andrew Jackson would have faded into hasty irrelevance.
EyeBrock @ Mon May 21, 2012 7:01 pm
The song was good for fighting in bars with Yanks though. We had a little battle with a few Yanks at the bar in Ascension Island who kept putting it on the juke box.
Gunnair @ Mon May 21, 2012 8:18 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Agreed Gunny. A lot of stuff was re-written for the masses in the US pre and post 1812.
I like to get viewpoints from historians unfettered with political and nationalistic crap. Obviously everybody will carry a bit of that with them but a warts and all approach is one I value. There are some interesting accounts and viewpoints coming out of late. Some people might not like what they say but the stuff I've read by Andrew Lambert has given me cause to revisit my POV. Bart and I were chatting about Max Hasting's 'Overlord' which gives an interesting look at D-Day up to D-Day plus 90.
As the great sage Roger Waters said. "Things are not what they seem." I like to dig a bit deeper on the mainstream view of historical events. It's just like an investigation. Different accounts go to making up a complete picture.
I like to get viewpoints from historians unfettered with political and nationalistic crap. Obviously everybody will carry a bit of that with them but a warts and all approach is one I value. There are some interesting accounts and viewpoints coming out of late. Some people might not like what they say but the stuff I've read by Andrew Lambert has given me cause to revisit my POV. Bart and I were chatting about Max Hasting's 'Overlord' which gives an interesting look at D-Day up to D-Day plus 90.
As the great sage Roger Waters said. "Things are not what they seem." I like to dig a bit deeper on the mainstream view of historical events. It's just like an investigation. Different accounts go to making up a complete picture.
I'm re-reading Pierre Burton's Flqmes Across the Border and frankly, I'm rather pleased that his populist history doesn't border on the absurd with 'Canadians burned the Whitehouse and other such nonsense. In his history, militias sucked, Indians were unreliable, and the British generals after Brock mostly sucked.
EyeBrock @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:16 pm
I liked that book. I have a signed copy of 'Vimy'. Berton is pretty good for a populist type guy.
Brock was the right man for the job at the right time. Pity he exposed himself to become easy prey for a sniper. I agree on his replacements sucking but those were the days when you bought a commission.
I believe there was actually a militia regiment that became a line regiment, which was pretty unusual for a colonial militia. The Glengarry Light Infantry, I'm trying to remember where I read that. I think they were mostly ex-Jock git vets to start off with. Besides this regiment the rest of the militia were not really up to much.
Gunnair @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:20 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
I liked that book. I have a signed copy of 'Vimy'. Berton is pretty good for a populist type guy.
Brock was the right man for the job at the right time. Pity he exposed himself to become easy prey for a sniper. I agree on his replacements sucking but those were the days when you bought a commission.
I believe there was actually a militia regiment that became a line regiment, which was pretty unusual for a colonial militia. The Glengarry Light Infantry, I'm trying to remember where I read that. I think they were mostly ex-Jock git vets to start off with. Besides this regiment the rest of the militia were not really up to much.
Brock was the right man for the job at the right time. Pity he exposed himself to become easy prey for a sniper. I agree on his replacements sucking but those were the days when you bought a commission.
I believe there was actually a militia regiment that became a line regiment, which was pretty unusual for a colonial militia. The Glengarry Light Infantry, I'm trying to remember where I read that. I think they were mostly ex-Jock git vets to start off with. Besides this regiment the rest of the militia were not really up to much.
True enough. The relief is that they Yanks sucked worse (except at sea - Perry was a smart egg and the big Yank frigates out matched the tired tubs that Kippers threw at them)
EyeBrock @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:22 pm
But not HMS Shannon......it kicked arse.
ShepherdsDog @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:24 pm
All the what ifs involved in history. If Washington had of been granted a regular commission, in the British military, like he wanted, everything else would have been moot
Gunnair @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:29 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
But not HMS Shannon......it kicked arse.
It did, but give credit to the Yanks - Java, Guerrier, and Macedonian were black eyes for the Kippers that had the arrogance to send under armd weather beaten tubs against the cream of the USN with the expectation it would be a cake walk.
EyeBrock @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:35 pm
British frigates of the same class than the USN boaty things were smaller and had less guns of a smaller size.
The Brits and the Yanks have always been the same. The Yanks will send aircraft, boats and tanks out with the most and biggest guns they can get.
The Brits will get the cheapest bit of kit they can buy with 'just enough' guns which usually prove to be 'never enough'. They will never change. Cheap fuckers.
I go with the Yanks and MTV. Too much is never enough.
Gunnair @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:44 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
British frigates of the same class than the USN boaty things were smaller and had less guns of a smaller size.
Well to be fair to the Kippers, by he time 1812 rolled along frigates were changing from the late 18th century standard of 32 to 38 guns of 12 to 18 pounders to 40 plus with 24 pounders. The Yanks were focused on the new class whilst the Kippers were still focused on building line of battleships to face off against the French. Sixth rates were not a high priority and British arrogance made it hat much worse.
EyeBrock @ Mon May 21, 2012 9:58 pm
British arrogance? I won't take that sort of shit from some colonial half-Jock from the sticks. Now run along old chap.
Gunnair @ Tue May 22, 2012 12:37 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
British arrogance? I won't take that sort of shit from some colonial half-Jock from the sticks. Now run along old chap.
You will and you did. Back to your potatoes now.
FurTrader4 @ Tue May 22, 2012 1:02 pm
I'm re-reading Pierre Burton's Flqmes Across the Border and frankly, I'm rather pleased that his populist history doesn't border on the absurd with 'Canadians burned the Whitehouse and other such nonsense. In his history, militias sucked, Indians were unreliable, and the British generals after Brock mostly sucked.[/quote]
I have Pierre Burton's The Invasion of Canada and Flames Across the border too and I think both books are a must read although there are some omissions there always are...
He mentions Colonel Robert Dickson (Fur Trader) of Dickson's Post (Minnespolis Minnesota) and Chief Black Hawk but no Colonel William McKay NWCo Furtrader of Fort William (Thunder Bay).
When war broke out with the U.S. William McKay immediately offered his services to the British Army.
His first major contribution was to make a 500 mile journey by canoe from Montreal to St.Joseph Island,Lake Huron in 8 days.
The declaration of war he carried from General Brock allowed the British to capture Fort Makinac by suprise.
This victory encouraged the Native Americans to side with the British resulting in further British victories.
Later during the autumn & winter of 1812 McKay returned to Montreal to help raise the Canadian Corps of Voyageurs.
The Metis Voyageurs were the middle men that convinced the Native American tribes to back the British.
Native Americans from the Fort William (Thunder Bay) area were represented by the 52nd Bullmoose Battalion.
They were present in every major battle even as far away as in Chateuguay, Quebec along with General Charles de Salaberry.
FurTrader4 @ Tue May 22, 2012 1:14 pm
True enough. The relief is that they Yanks sucked worse (except at sea - Perry was a smart egg and the big Yank frigates out matched the tired tubs that Kippers threw at them)[/quote]
On Lake Ontario the big story was the HMS St. Lawrence 2,305 tons 112 guns 700 crew she was the only British ship of the line that ever sailed on the Great Lakes. Even larger than Lord Nelson's flag ship HMS Victory at the battle of Trafalgar.
The largest ships on Lake Superior the NWCo 200 ton schooners like the HMS Recovery that Captain McCargo hid on McCargo Cove Isle Royale and HMS Perserverence.
HMS Perserverence was burned at Sault Ste. Marie along with the Point Aux Pins Ship Yard constructed in 1735.
The above information is complements of the Hudson's Bay Co Archives Winnipeg because the NWCo did neither recover or perservere after the War of 1812 it went bankrupt and was bought out by the HBC.
One thing we do know is that Fur Trader's did keep acurate records whether it be the Nothwest Co, Hudson's Bay Co, John Jacob Astor's American Fur Co or the many others.
EyeBrock @ Tue May 22, 2012 5:06 pm
HMS St Lawrence kept the US fleet in harbour once it arrived. The naval side of the war is quite intersting and I will be buying Andrew Lambert's book on it all.
FT4, you are well up on this!