National Post: John A. MacDonald was genocidal extremist
andyt @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:14 pm
Jabberwalker Jabberwalker:
... nore should they be. Real, flesh and blood humans ... warts and all ...built our world, not cartoon superheroes.
And as PD says, it's important to examine those warts, keep them in mind as much as the positives.
Unsound @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:16 pm
Public_Domain Public_Domain:
I'd like it if we were able to speak of our "Founding Fathers" in a negative/realistic light now and then, something the Americans struggle to find the freedom to do without it being a scandal.
Isn't that exactly what's happening in at least 2 threads at this very moment? Don't we do it on a near constant basis, as a nation? Virtually anytime I see anything about any Canadian histrical figures, founding fathers or otherwise, there's an almost automatic tendency to present them in a more negative than positive light.
andyt @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:22 pm
Unsound Unsound:
Public_Domain Public_Domain:
I'd like it if we were able to speak of our "Founding Fathers" in a negative/realistic light now and then, something the Americans struggle to find the freedom to do without it being a scandal.
Isn't that exactly what's happening in at least 2 threads at this very moment? Don't we do it on a near constant basis, as a nation? Virtually anytime I see anything about any Canadian histrical figures, founding fathers or otherwise, there's an almost automatic tendency to present them in a more negative than positive light.
I think on the whole that's a good thing. Better that than making them the superheros Jared mentioned. IT can be overdone in either direction, but I would prefer to err going negative than positive.
Public_Domain @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:34 pm
JaredMilne @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:37 pm
andyt andyt:
I think on the whole that's a good thing. Better that than making them the superheros Jared mentioned. IT can be overdone in either direction, but I would prefer to err going negative than positive.
Um, what?
Both Richard Gwyn in his article, and I in my other thread, both pointed out some of the very real flaws Macdonald had, including his bigotry...
$1:
Unfortunately, while he was ahead of his time in some ways, he was also still of his time in others. He viewed the Aboriginal peoples as inferior savages who needed to be properly "civilized" and taught the "correct" way to live, which in turn led to the ghastly legacy of the residential schools, which directly led to many of the social problems Aboriginal peoples have today...and also showed how Canadian racism could often be more subtle than its American counterpart. He also imposed the appalling "head tax" on Chinese immigrants, and didn't care at all for their welfare in building the CPR-I remember one Heritage Minute citing the story that one Chinese man died for every mile of track building the CPR. All that can be said in Macdonald's defence is that such bigotry was the standard of the day...and it should be noted that many citizens were far worse than he personally was, whether the virulent reactions against the Chinese in B.C. or the hysterics of some radical Orange Protestants in Ontario in calling for Louis Riel to be hanged after the Riel Resistance.
Or from Gwyn writing in the Toronto Star...
$1:
He most certainly had flaws. He was a drunk, the single fact about him most Canadians are aware of. Known by very few, though, is the fact Macdonald quit, an accomplishment even more difficult in that hard-drinking era than it is for addicts today.
He was corrupt, taking money from businesses that depended on government contracts, albeit for his Conservative Party rather than himself. Later, Sir Wilfrid Laurier would adopt Macdonald’s patronage program in every respect except, cleverly, by making sure his own hands were clean.
In the past few years, Macdonald’s reputation has been assaulted by an entirely new and a deadly accusation. This is that he was a “racist” who, once the buffalo had been exterminated, deliberately allowed Indians to starve in order to clear the way for his railway. Sometimes, “racist” is escalated into an accusation of him having a “genocidal” policy.
He did make mistakes, the most serious being how he put the needs of his railway ahead of those of the native people of the Prairies, his attention wandering because the railway was threatened by bankruptcy. Had the railway gone down, the risk was real that the nation itself, already struggling with an economic depression, would go down, too.
Was Macdonald a great, but flawed man?
Sure.
Was he a superhero?
No, not really, and that's not what I or anybody else on this forum is saying about him.
Public_Domain @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:38 pm
andyt @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:43 pm
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Was he a superhero?
No, not really, and that's not what I or anybody else on this forum is saying about him.
No, not really, and that's not what I or anybody else on this forum is saying about him.
I know, but you were the one to use the term superhero. Relax.
fifeboy @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:48 pm
You want to know what really burns me up about Sir John A, I mean really...the SOB drank gin. I mean really, who drinks gin for God's sake! 
andyt @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 7:56 pm
Yep. Wasn't gin a real low class drink in those days, rotgut with juniper flavoring? I mean you hear about bathtub gin, but not bathtub scotch. That said, I used to like a good Tanquary and Schweppes in the summer. Couldn't conceive of drinking it straight the way you can with good scotch.
fifeboy @ Tue Jan 13, 2015 8:08 pm
andyt andyt:
but not bathtub scotch.
Jeeze Andy, thanks 
Now I can't get the image of Shep and Gunner bathing together in said tub out of my head 
Jabberwalker @ Wed Jan 14, 2015 10:24 am
fifeboy fifeboy:
You want to know what really burns me up about Sir John A, I mean really...the SOB drank gin. I mean really, who drinks gin for God's sake!
Gin is slightly flavoured ethanol (as opposed to Vodka, which is just ethanol with water) and it used to be referred to a "Mother's Ruin" about a century and a half ago.
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Thu Jan 15, 2015 2:46 am
andyt andyt:
Yep. Wasn't gin a real low class drink in those days, rotgut with juniper flavoring? I mean you hear about bathtub gin, but not bathtub scotch. That said, I used to like a good Tanquary and Schweppes in the summer. Couldn't conceive of drinking it straight the way you can with good scotch.
Gin and gingers. I remember that drinking phase...well sort'a