Death of the Aircraft Carrier
Scape @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 3:50 pm
$1:
I’ve been saying for a long time that aircraft carriers are just history’s most expensive floating targets, and that they were doomed.
But now I can tell you exactly how they’re going to die. I’ve just read one of the most shocking stories in years. It comes from the US Naval Institute, not exactly an alarmist or anti-Navy source. And what it says is that the US carrier group is scrap metal.
But now I can tell you exactly how they’re going to die. I’ve just read one of the most shocking stories in years. It comes from the US Naval Institute, not exactly an alarmist or anti-Navy source. And what it says is that the US carrier group is scrap metal.
commanderkai @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:06 pm
That was the biggest sack of shit I've read. ABM technology is already here. Hell, look at the AEGIS system on US destroyers. Right now, the Chinese might or might not have developed a ballistic missile that has the possibility of hitting a US carrier. So even, hypothetically, they build enough for every single US carrier, what exactly will prevent their destruction by B2 Stealth Bombers? Or submarine launched missiles, or whatever else?
The carrier isn't dead, far from it.
TattoodGirl @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:08 pm
A positive in this is its a start in manufacturing new artificial reefs
Scape @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:20 pm
Kai, how much is a carrier worth? How much does it cost to crew and equip? A tenth of that cost could put to sea an armada of expendable launch platforms be they air, sea or even land based that would overwhelm the most state of the art ABM system. Yes, it would stop a vast majority of the initial wave but all they need is a handful to get through and the carrier is scrap metal resting with Davy Jones' Locker.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Proculation @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:26 pm
commanderkai commanderkai:
That was the biggest sack of shit I've read. ABM technology is already here. Hell, look at the AEGIS system on US destroyers. Right now, the Chinese might or might not have developed a ballistic missile that has the possibility of hitting a US carrier. So even, hypothetically, they build enough for every single US carrier, what exactly will prevent their destruction by B2 Stealth Bombers? Or submarine launched missiles, or whatever else?
The carrier isn't dead, far from it.
The carrier isn't dead, far from it.
There's only 11 US carriers. The second country with the most have only 2.
Scape @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:27 pm
$1:
That’s one way the US Navy could have gone after the Eilat went down: a fleet of smaller, lighter ships, basically ships you could afford to lose. There are some real interesting computer modeled naval war games that seem to be telling us that’s the way to invest your naval budget: lots of small ships carrying big missiles.
Another way would have been to develop an effective defense weapon against ballistic missiles. Maybe the navy tried that; maybe that’s part of what the whole Star Wars boondoggle was actually about, protecting the carriers against weapons like Dong Feng 21. I don’t know.
But it’s real clear by now that if they did try it, they failed. There is no defense. So either you go with boats you can afford to lose, or you downsize the navy radically, turn it into a low-tech anti-piracy force only used against stone-age opponents like the Somalis, or you go the U-boat route the Germans took when they realized the age of the battleship was over, sticking to subs. Because one way or another, if we get into it for real with China or even Iran, all our ships are going to subs, one way or the other.
Another way would have been to develop an effective defense weapon against ballistic missiles. Maybe the navy tried that; maybe that’s part of what the whole Star Wars boondoggle was actually about, protecting the carriers against weapons like Dong Feng 21. I don’t know.
But it’s real clear by now that if they did try it, they failed. There is no defense. So either you go with boats you can afford to lose, or you downsize the navy radically, turn it into a low-tech anti-piracy force only used against stone-age opponents like the Somalis, or you go the U-boat route the Germans took when they realized the age of the battleship was over, sticking to subs. Because one way or another, if we get into it for real with China or even Iran, all our ships are going to subs, one way or the other.
Pseudonym @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:29 pm
Weapons technology will obviously continue advancing, making aircraft carriers into progressively more vulnerable targets. They remain, however, an extremely powerful means of projecting power across the world. Aircraft carriers will become obsolete when either aircraft themselves become obsolete, or when aircraft advance to the point where the carrier is not needed as a mobile base.
That said, I would like to see what sort of countermeasures are available to protect the modern carrier. It doesn't seem like they would be as defenseless as this article states.
raydan @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:30 pm
I hope not.
One of the biggest experiences of my life was visiting the HMCS Bonaventure.
My father served on her in the early sixties.
Chumley @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:33 pm
Scape Scape:
Kai, how much is a carrier worth? How much does it cost to crew and equip? A tenth of that cost could put to sea an armada of expendable launch platforms be they air, sea or even land based that would overwhelm the most state of the art ABM system. Yes, it would stop a vast majority of the initial wave but all they need is a handful to get through and the carrier is scrap metal resting with Davy Jones' Locker.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Hey, they talked that shit about the Galactica and it saved the human race from extinction!
DerbyX @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:36 pm
Chumley Chumley:
Scape Scape:
Kai, how much is a carrier worth? How much does it cost to crew and equip? A tenth of that cost could put to sea an armada of expendable launch platforms be they air, sea or even land based that would overwhelm the most state of the art ABM system. Yes, it would stop a vast majority of the initial wave but all they need is a handful to get through and the carrier is scrap metal resting with Davy Jones' Locker.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Hey, they talked that shit about the Galactica and it saved the human race from extinction!
They weren't abandoning battlestars just retiring one that was over 50 years old. Remember that the Pegasus was part of the new and upgraded class.
Scape @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:36 pm
Like the battleships the aircraft carriers replaced they have become expensive white elephants. Sacred in name but in no way are worth the cost they extract in maintenance. Even the mighty Bismark was taken down by cheap torpedo bombers. I am certain that the modern US carrier group could take down a cruise missile attack with trivial ease and even hundred at the same time but what if there were tens of thousands? Goliath was killed with a simple stone these giants will fall to the same fate and have long since passed their useful existence and are now figureheads.
Chumley @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:37 pm
DerbyX DerbyX:
Chumley Chumley:
Scape Scape:
Kai, how much is a carrier worth? How much does it cost to crew and equip? A tenth of that cost could put to sea an armada of expendable launch platforms be they air, sea or even land based that would overwhelm the most state of the art ABM system. Yes, it would stop a vast majority of the initial wave but all they need is a handful to get through and the carrier is scrap metal resting with Davy Jones' Locker.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Hey, they talked that shit about the Galactica and it saved the human race from extinction!
They weren't abandoning battlestars just retiring one that was over 50 years old. Remember that the Pegasus was part of the new and upgraded class.
But they were still talking about it though.
Scape @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:38 pm
Chumley Chumley:
Scape Scape:
Kai, how much is a carrier worth? How much does it cost to crew and equip? A tenth of that cost could put to sea an armada of expendable launch platforms be they air, sea or even land based that would overwhelm the most state of the art ABM system. Yes, it would stop a vast majority of the initial wave but all they need is a handful to get through and the carrier is scrap metal resting with Davy Jones' Locker.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Your utter denial of reality isn't shocking as it seems to be standard fair from you. Enjoy your Quixote pursuits.
Hey, they talked that shit about the Galactica and it saved the human race from extinction!
Keyword: Jumpdrive.
DerbyX @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:38 pm
Chumley Chumley:
But they were still talking about it though.
I don't recall that from canon.
Chumley @ Mon Apr 13, 2009 4:40 pm
DerbyX DerbyX:
Chumley Chumley:
But they were still talking about it though.
I don't recall that from canon.
You had to be there. They didn't catch it on camera.