Levels Of Competence In The World Wars?
Hyack @ Wed Dec 19, 2012 11:46 pm
Jonny_C Jonny_C:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
As a bit of an aside, I don't know if any of you saw the recent program explaining why we raided Dieppe, or at least tried, but it was eye opening and NOT a useless exercise in the least. IT was still a horrible failure but the reason for the raid in the first place was of HIGHEST priority. A four wheel enigma machine.
The documents with the details were finally declassified earlier this year.
The documents with the details were finally declassified earlier this year.
I've never heard of this, and I'd be skeptical. The Allies wanted an Enigma coding machine, and they eventually got one off a sub that the Germans believed was sunk before the Allies got it off the boat. I think they got another one in Poland, if memory serves. But the whole idea behind getting an Enigma machine was to get it without the Germans knowing, or they would have discontinued use of the machine.
Breaking German codes real reason for 1942 Dieppe raid
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 12:24 am
Jonny_C Jonny_C:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
As a bit of an aside, I don't know if any of you saw the recent program explaining why we raided Dieppe, or at least tried, but it was eye opening and NOT a useless exercise in the least. IT was still a horrible failure but the reason for the raid in the first place was of HIGHEST priority. A four wheel enigma machine.
The documents with the details were finally declassified earlier this year.
The documents with the details were finally declassified earlier this year.
I've never heard of this, and I'd be skeptical. The Allies wanted an Enigma coding machine, and they eventually got one off a sub that the Germans believed was sunk before the Allies got it off the boat. I think they got another one in Poland, if memory serves. But the whole idea behind getting an Enigma machine was to get it without the Germans knowing, or they would have discontinued use of the machine.
You're thinking of the original enigma machine that the RN captured in 1940. It was a 3 wheeled unit. The machine they were after at Dieppe was a brand new 4 wheeled unit.
martin14 @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 1:38 am
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
Jonny_C Jonny_C:
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
As a bit of an aside, I don't know if any of you saw the recent program explaining why we raided Dieppe, or at least tried, but it was eye opening and NOT a useless exercise in the least. IT was still a horrible failure but the reason for the raid in the first place was of HIGHEST priority. A four wheel enigma machine.
The documents with the details were finally declassified earlier this year.
The documents with the details were finally declassified earlier this year.
I've never heard of this, and I'd be skeptical. The Allies wanted an Enigma coding machine, and they eventually got one off a sub that the Germans believed was sunk before the Allies got it off the boat. I think they got another one in Poland, if memory serves. But the whole idea behind getting an Enigma machine was to get it without the Germans knowing, or they would have discontinued use of the machine.
You're thinking of the original enigma machine that the RN captured in 1940. It was a 3 wheeled unit. The machine they were after at Dieppe was a brand new 4 wheeled unit.
There have been many attempts to whitewash Dieppe.
This was just another one.
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:03 am
martin14 martin14:
There have been many attempts to whitewash Dieppe.
This was just another one.
This was just another one.
Really? I bet over the next 3 years we learn a LOT of stuff about WW2 that we had absolutely NO idea about as more information becomes declassified.
And actually this isn't the first time it's been mentioned that the Dieppe raid was an intelligence raid. In the book, "A Man Called Intrepid" which was vetted by Sir William Stephenson himself, Stephenson exclaims that the purpose of the Dieppe raid was to gather intelligence and specifically to seize nazi "radar equipment".
I mean even the term "raid" implies it's meant to be a hit and run.
martin14 @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 2:24 am
PublicAnimalNo9 PublicAnimalNo9:
martin14 martin14:
There have been many attempts to whitewash Dieppe.
This was just another one.
This was just another one.
Really? I bet over the next 3 years we learn a LOT of stuff about WW2 that we had absolutely NO idea about as more information becomes declassified.
And actually this isn't the first time it's been mentioned that the Dieppe raid was an intelligence raid. In the book, "A Man Called Intrepid" which was vetted by Sir William Stephenson himself, Stephenson exclaims that the purpose of the Dieppe raid was to gather intelligence and specifically to seize nazi "radar equipment".
I mean even the term "raid" implies it's meant to be a hit and run.
Well Dieppe certainly wasn't going to be the Second Front, so it was always a 'raid'.
As Johnny pointed out, if they had taken a 4 wheel, the Germans would have noticed,
and changed everything accordingly; the idea was to get one WITHOUT them knowing.
They never figured out we had the 3 wheel from the RN, nor that the Poles
had almost cracked enigma without having one..
Jonny_C @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:26 am
Sorry, the Enigma reason for Dieppe is basically hogwash IMO.
$1:
According to files, British naval intelligence believed that in order to crack the four-rotor Enigma machine, a pinch raid was necessary. A successful pinch would mean secretly stealing parts of the machine, code books and setting sheets.
How do you "secretly steal" such a machine with an amphibious attack by thousands of troops? If the attack had succeeded the Germans would have known that one of their machines had been captured. At best, that might have set back German intelligence for a little while as they figured out new codes and new ways to transmit them.
The raid was a botch. They didn't even get the promised air support! Trying to give a new reason for carrying out the raid doesn't make it any less of a fiasco.
BartSimpson @ Thu Dec 20, 2012 11:58 am
Jonny_C Jonny_C:
Trying to give a new reason for carrying out the raid doesn't make it any less of a fiasco.
As much as it pains me, I have to admit that you're right about this. Even if the raid was put on to secure an Engma machine it was still a clusterf*ck.