Question from a military spouse
Tricks @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:17 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Tricks Tricks:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
ArmyMan ArmyMan:
I'm reminded of the book, "Starship Troopers". The book, not the movie. In the book, only people that have been in the military are allowed to be called citizens and are able to vote. Maybe we should have started that here.
Yes, when only those with guns get to call the shots it's called a "military dictatorship" or a "police state." If that's what you want, maybe you should emigrate to Pakistan.
May I also remind you that if it wasn't for us taxpayers driving the economy and paying the taxes that pay your salary, you wouldn't have the opportunity to do the job you do. So get off your high horse.
Well, thanks, but I prefer Canada to Sparta. If you prefer Sparta, then you're probably more ideologically suited to the Taliban.
2Cdo @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:27 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
ArmyMan ArmyMan:
I'm reminded of the book, "Starship Troopers". The book, not the movie. In the book, only people that have been in the military are allowed to be called citizens and are able to vote. Maybe we should have started that here.
Yes, when only those with guns get to call the shots it's called a "military dictatorship" or a "police state." If that's what you want, maybe you should emigrate to Pakistan.
May I also remind you that if it wasn't for us taxpayers driving the economy and paying the taxes that pay your salary, you wouldn't have the opportunity to do the job you do. So get off your high horse.
May I also remind you that the average soldier in Canada makes an extremely good wage and thus pays a good portion back to the government at tax time.
It's almost funny that people like yourself almost always trot out the "I pay your wages" bullshit in reference to the military but wouldn't think twice to use the same line on healthcare workers, who get a much larger cut of the tax pie than the military!
ArmyMan @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 12:42 pm
2Cdo 2Cdo:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
ArmyMan ArmyMan:
I'm reminded of the book, "Starship Troopers". The book, not the movie. In the book, only people that have been in the military are allowed to be called citizens and are able to vote. Maybe we should have started that here.
Yes, when only those with guns get to call the shots it's called a "military dictatorship" or a "police state." If that's what you want, maybe you should emigrate to Pakistan.
May I also remind you that if it wasn't for us taxpayers driving the economy and paying the taxes that pay your salary, you wouldn't have the opportunity to do the job you do. So get off your high horse.
May I also remind you that the average soldier in Canada makes an extremely good wage and thus pays a good portion back to the government at tax time.
It's almost funny that people like yourself almost always trot out the "I pay your wages" bullshit in reference to the military but wouldn't think twice to use the same line on healthcare workers, who get a much larger cut of the tax pie than the military!
You the man 2Cdo
you helped hit it on the head!
We figured a couple of years ago, that when we were either on ex or overseas, we made about $2-3 per hr, since we are on duty 24/7. When we are on the unit though, I figure I only bring about half my pay home, the largest chunck goes to the tax man (meaning I pay myself, not you paying me, Zipper), also we in Ontario have to pay for OHIP that we can't use. Plus, there are some trade that have to pay to work, I have Cook friends that have to pay for meals in the kitchen were they work (and no, they can't leave or bring lunch with them). Do you have that in your job Zipper?
BartSimpson @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:03 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Well, thanks, but I prefer Canada to Sparta. If you prefer Sparta, then you're probably more ideologically suited to the Taliban.
That's a rather unexpected remark from you, Zip.
Sparta assigned the full rights of Citizenship to those who had learned the Agoge (the training needed for the military) but never did they require subsequent military service as Sparta did not have a standing military but an all-reserve force. The Agoge was not just military training but training in the expectations of Citizenship as Sparta kept no written laws - something that frustrated the lawyers of the day, no doubt. It should also be noted that women were allowed to pursue the education and requirements of the Agoge and that qualified women served in the public assembly.
While the state was aggressive in its demands it should also be noted that Sparta had enemies on all sides and the nation maintained peace by maintaining a state of readiness. That the whole of the nation was more or less always ready for war went a long way in deterring the aggression of other Greek states, but more importantly, the aggression of the Persians (latter day Iranians).
A Spartan would be one who would sacrifice him/herself for the survival of their nation and would dedicate their life to their country.
Canada would do well with a few Spartans about to adamantly defend democracy.
Tricks @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:16 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
That the whole of the nation was more or less always ready for war went a long way in deterring the aggression of other Greek states, but more importantly, the aggression of the Persians (latter day Iranians).
"To be prepared for war is one of the most effectual means of preserving peace." -- George Washington 1790.
Zipperfish @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:24 pm
2Cdo 2Cdo:
It's almost funny that people like yourself almost always trot out the "I pay your wages" bullshit in reference to the military but wouldn't think twice to use the same line on healthcare workers, who get a much larger cut of the tax pie than the military!
Well, first of all, it's not bullshit--I do pay the wages of people who work in the public sector.
Second of all, to be clear, I am not trying to denigrate the military or anyone in the military. Just because I pay their wages doesn't mean I resent paying their wages. What I resent is when people--like ArmyMan-- in the military (and elsewhere) who think they are somehow more deserving of citizenry than those of us worker bees who also add a great deal to the quality of life in Canada, and without whom there would be no military.
$1:
May I also remind you that the average soldier in Canada makes an extremely good wage and thus pays a good portion back to the government at tax time.
If you cost $50,000 of wealth and then pay back $20,000 in taxes, you're still $30,000 of wealth in the hole. It's elementary economics of wealth creation.
Zipperfish @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 1:54 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
That's a rather unexpected remark from you, Zip.
Sparta assigned the full rights of Citizenship to those who had learned the Agoge (the training needed for the military) but never did they require subsequent military service as Sparta did not have a standing military but an all-reserve force. The Agoge was not just military training but training in the expectations of Citizenship as Sparta kept no written laws - something that frustrated the lawyers of the day, no doubt. It should also be noted that women were allowed to pursue the education and requirements of the Agoge and that qualified women served in the public assembly.
While the state was aggressive in its demands it should also be noted that Sparta had enemies on all sides and the nation maintained peace by maintaining a state of readiness. That the whole of the nation was more or less always ready for war went a long way in deterring the aggression of other Greek states, but more importantly, the aggression of the Persians (latter day Iranians).
Sparta assigned the full rights of Citizenship to those who had learned the Agoge (the training needed for the military) but never did they require subsequent military service as Sparta did not have a standing military but an all-reserve force. The Agoge was not just military training but training in the expectations of Citizenship as Sparta kept no written laws - something that frustrated the lawyers of the day, no doubt. It should also be noted that women were allowed to pursue the education and requirements of the Agoge and that qualified women served in the public assembly.
While the state was aggressive in its demands it should also be noted that Sparta had enemies on all sides and the nation maintained peace by maintaining a state of readiness. That the whole of the nation was more or less always ready for war went a long way in deterring the aggression of other Greek states, but more importantly, the aggression of the Persians (latter day Iranians).
Sparta is certainly an interesting study in the annals of human societies. I suppose my comment derived from the fact that life in Sparta was often characterized by an almost casual brutality and harsh discipline for anyone that transgressed the very strict mores of their society.
$1:
A Spartan would be one who would sacrifice him/herself for the survival of their nation and would dedicate their life to their country.
Canada would do well with a few Spartans about to adamantly defend democracy.
Canada would do well with a few Spartans about to adamantly defend democracy.
Basically, as a fan of Adam Smith's "invisible hand," I believe that by pursuing my own advantage first in foremost, then (in a capitalist society) I am doing more to promote the public interest than those who actually seek to promote the public interest.
2Cdo @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:07 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
2Cdo 2Cdo:
It's almost funny that people like yourself almost always trot out the "I pay your wages" bullshit in reference to the military but wouldn't think twice to use the same line on healthcare workers, who get a much larger cut of the tax pie than the military!
Well, first of all, it's not bullshit--I do pay the wages of people who work in the public sector.
Second of all, to be clear, I am not trying to denigrate the military or anyone in the military. Just because I pay their wages doesn't mean I resent paying their wages. What I resent is when people--like ArmyMan-- in the military (and elsewhere) who think they are somehow more deserving of citizenry than those of us worker bees who also add a great deal to the quality of life in Canada, and without whom there would be no military.
$1:
May I also remind you that the average soldier in Canada makes an extremely good wage and thus pays a good portion back to the government at tax time.
If you cost $50,000 of wealth and then pay back $20,000 in taxes, you're still $30,000 of wealth in the hole. It's elementary economics of wealth creation.
Actually, if you were to do the math, you might actually pay a couple of dollars of one soldiers pay over a period of a year! You would pay much more towards a doctor/medical worker, but we never hear people bitching at doctors about "paying their wage".
What most soldiers resent is hearing that tired refrain from some POS who most likely doesn't even HAVE a job!(Not that you are a POS) Some, and you are sounding like one, people think because they pay taxes that they can make any comment towards a member of the military (usually derogatory) and we should just accept it. Sorry pal, doesn't work that way!
Zipperfish @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:33 pm
2Cdo 2Cdo:
What most soldiers resent is hearing that tired refrain from some POS who most likely doesn't even HAVE a job!(Not that you are a POS) Some, and you are sounding like one, people think because they pay taxes that they can make any comment towards a member of the military (usually derogatory) and we should just accept it. Sorry pal, doesn't work that way!
OK, before we get carried away here... First of all, thank you for not referring to me as a POS. Secondly, I do not think I should have a say in how the military is run just because I pay taxes--except through my vote, and that is how it should be. You (as a soldier) do not work for me (a private citizen); you work for General Hillier who works for the Minister of Defence; the Minister of Defence works for the people of Canada (the Crown) and I am a people of Canada.
My point is only this and only this (reposted from earlier):
$1:
I am not trying to denigrate the military or anyone in the military. Just because I pay their wages doesn't mean I resent paying their wages. What I resent is when people--like ArmyMan-- in the military (and elsewhere) who think they are somehow more deserving of citizenry than those of us worker bees who also add a great deal to the quality of life in Canada, and without whom there would be no military.
BartSimpson @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 2:41 pm
My own idea for people earning the right of suffrage is that they should complete some form of national service so that they have an appreciation for their country before they start voting.
Whether it is military service or community service is irrelevant to me. I just don't like the idea of losers voting themselves higher welfare benefits on someone else's dime when they've done nothing to warrant such largesse.
The schools anymore require the kids to perform some sort of community service and that's about the direction I'm going with this: do something for your country before you start making demands at the ballot box.
Zipperfish @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:46 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
My own idea for people earning the right of suffrage is that they should complete some form of national service so that they have an appreciation for their country before they start voting.
Whether it is military service or community service is irrelevant to me. I just don't like the idea of losers voting themselves higher welfare benefits on someone else's dime when they've done nothing to warrant such largesse.
The schools anymore require the kids to perform some sort of community service and that's about the direction I'm going with this: do something for your country before you start making demands at the ballot box.
Whether it is military service or community service is irrelevant to me. I just don't like the idea of losers voting themselves higher welfare benefits on someone else's dime when they've done nothing to warrant such largesse.
The schools anymore require the kids to perform some sort of community service and that's about the direction I'm going with this: do something for your country before you start making demands at the ballot box.
Fomr my point of view, I'll quote Adam Smith on the mater of public service:
$1:
Every individual is continually exerting himself to find out the most advantageous employment for whatever capital he can command. It is his own advantage, indeed, and not that of the society, which he has in view. But the study of his own advantage naturally, or rather necessarily, leads him to prefer that employment which is most advantageous to the society.
...
"He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention.
...
"He generally, indeed, neither intends to promote the public interest, nor knows how much he is promoting it. By preferring the support of domestic to that of foreign industry, he intends only his own security; and by directing that industry in such a manner as its produce may be of the greatest value, he intends only his own gain, and he is in this, as in many other cases, led by an invisible hand to promote an end which was no part of his intention.
fatbasturd @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 3:52 pm
ArmyMan ArmyMan:
At no point did I say that you had to join the military. The military is definitely not for everyone, for various reasons. Maybe I didn't make myself clear....but when it comes to the military, it is alot like politics. If you decide not to vote in an election, then you forfeit your right to complain down the road about any issue. With the military, unless you are in the military, you have no business commenting on what we do and don't do. You have no idea what it is like to be a part of the military, the stresses, the pressure, the willingness to die for your country. I am not saying that those in the military are better than anyone else, I am just saying, it is a different way of life and unless you have a direct link to the military, whether it be through a family member who has served or is serving, you can't possibly form an opinion on it.
I respect the fact that everyone has the right to an opinion. Just remember, it was due in large part to our Canadian military that you have that right today. Many people (civis') have no need for the military, except for when something tragic happens on our soil, then you are quick to call upon the military for aid. As much as that pisses off many in the military, we do our job because we took an oath.
When I made the comment about "armchair generals", I think you understood my meaning. There are those of you who, for whatever reason, didn't join the military, but feel you have the right to sit back and pass judgement on those who did/do serve. I don't pass judgement on those of you who don't serve, do us the same courtesy and lets us do our job!
I respect the fact that everyone has the right to an opinion. Just remember, it was due in large part to our Canadian military that you have that right today. Many people (civis') have no need for the military, except for when something tragic happens on our soil, then you are quick to call upon the military for aid. As much as that pisses off many in the military, we do our job because we took an oath.
When I made the comment about "armchair generals", I think you understood my meaning. There are those of you who, for whatever reason, didn't join the military, but feel you have the right to sit back and pass judgement on those who did/do serve. I don't pass judgement on those of you who don't serve, do us the same courtesy and lets us do our job!
$1:
I am just saying, it is a different way of life and unless you have a direct link to the military, whether it be through a family member who has served or is serving, you can't possibly form an opinion on it
My father was in the navy for 36 years , his father was in the navy for 20 years, my brother was in the navy(not quite sure how long) PMQ'S are a tradition in my family.....My father had a saying before he passed that he used all the time...If you can't play with the bull, don't get in the ring.$1:
I don't pass judgement on those of you who don't serve,
Read your post's in this thread again , sounds to me like you are just trying to pick a fight .
When you respond to this by saying that I am anti miltary or that I don't support our troops....find one post where I have said anything negitive about the Canadian miltary.
saskganesh @ Mon Sep 11, 2006 4:54 pm
ArmyMan ArmyMan:
WOW!!
I'm reminded of the book, "Starship Troopers". The book, not the movie. In the book, only people that have been in the military are allowed to be called citizens and are able to vote. Maybe we should have started that here.
I'm sure I've rattle some cages, but so be it.
I'm reminded of the book, "Starship Troopers". The book, not the movie. In the book, only people that have been in the military are allowed to be called citizens and are able to vote. Maybe we should have started that here.
I'm sure I've rattle some cages, but so be it.
just to reiterate, that's a poor model for a secular, democratic society. just as we have a seperation between church and state, we also have this concept where the military does not engage in politics.
CapeApe @ Wed Nov 29, 2006 9:04 am
Hey Zipperfish we in uniform are also tax payers...Everyone seems to think
we live for free at your expense..well wake up and smell the coffee because we don't..and where were you when we in unform had our pay frozen for 9yrs.. could we strike NOOOO...and any support from those of you enjoying your freedom...sadly NOOOO
Have A Nice Day