Fix Canada
hwacker @ Tue Jun 21, 2005 3:56 pm
Sounds good to me, When is Martini going to implement this?
Streaker @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 10:45 am
Oh well... At least we were spared those goofy poems/lyrics... 
manutd707 @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 12:15 pm
Best description of what Canada needs that I have read. My God do we need a change like that. Or perhaps the rearrangement of government by more foreceful means, perhaps with the golf iron of your choice.
Patrick_Ross @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:19 pm
First off, quit stealing my color. Secondly, I think this is a very good start, but there are a number of issues I would like to raise.
shamus11 shamus11:
Canadians do not elect their prime minister. He/she is only elected leader of a political party by the members of that party. Canadians have no direct input into this decision.
HOWEVER, the Prime Minister (as leader of a party) IS elected by the Canadian people, via the election of enough MPs to form the government. So long as the practice of the leader of the governing party becoming Prime Minister endures, this will continue to be a reality.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
1. This constitutional conference should be held in a small town in a remote place in the West -- away from the central-Canada pressures (Quebec with $5.5 billion in equalization (welfare) payments annually) and away from the have-not Atlantic Provinces.
While I can't say this is a bad idea, I also find it hard to believe that it would actually matter where in the country the conference is held.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
2. It should run in the belief that if we don't get it right this time, Canada could eventually join the US, all together or one province at a time. This has many positive and many negative factors. Canadian soldiers have fought beside US soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War, Balkans and Afghanistan. The differences between Canadians and Americans are almost non existent -- same language, customs and history. Canadians have a federal health-care system and the Americans do not. This difference could be eliminated if or when the Americans get health care from their government.
This IS a bad idea. You obviously underestimate the differences between Canada and the United States historically, politically and culturally.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
3. A simple and easy amendment formula for the constitution should be worked out -- 3 provinces -- 25% of Canadians -- which cannot be blocked by federal politicians opposed to changes. A mandatory review of the constitution should be held every ten years on a certain date.
I like this idea. It's like a regularly scheduled check-up for our country.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
6. It should be a constitution for Canada and Canadians -- not an international Charter for “everyone” in the world, as per the present Charter of Trudeau and Chretien and loved by all international socialists.
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is, by essence, one for Canadians. It sets a higher benchmark for the treatment of human rights, and sets a fairly visible line in the sand about what practices Canada does and does not condone. All we really need are politicians who are prepared to address this issue where necessary.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
Property Rights
10. Canadians should have property rights in their Constitution, anywhere in Canada and should not be deprived of property without proper and legal compensation. (Not now.)
10. Canadians should have property rights in their Constitution, anywhere in Canada and should not be deprived of property without proper and legal compensation. (Not now.)
This would eventually be twisted to serve as a shelter for ill-gotten wealth by various means (corporate crime, organized crime, drug trade, etc.) as it did for a time in the United States.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
14. All immigration, as in Quebec and Switzerland, should be a provincial or a municipal issue.
Not a good idea. Also, completely useless. Once an immigrant who lands in, say, Ontario becomes a Canadian citizen, he is free to move as he pleases. Furthermore, exactly what does this seek to accomplish?
Shamus11 Shamus11:
15. Illegal immigrants should be kept in custody until they are deported as soon as possible. This should not require lawyers and courtroom appearances.
Does this involve those who are fleeing from oppressive regimes and applying for refugee status being immediately sent back into the clutches of said oppressive regimes?
Shamus11 Shamus11:
17. Canada should have a ten-year moratorium on immigration. No more acceptance of refugees unless each individual case is presented and discussed in parliament.
Canada can't afford a 10-year moratorium on immigration. In fact, no country on the planet can afford to put important business aside for a period so long.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
19. The prime minister, should be allowed only two terms in office, if he is reelected by all Canadians.
In this case, are we looking at a Prime Minister who is elected separately from his MPs? I can't say this isn't a good idea.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
20. All federal politicians should have fixed terms in office -- no more than two terms in any political office -- no more Canadian Chretiens, Cuban Castros or Mugabes of Zimbabwe. No more prime ministers for life or those attempting to manipulate the system and stay for life.
21. Politicians who, having served two terms in office, should not subsequently be allowed to hold a position within government administration or a position in the private sector directly dealing with the government.
21. Politicians who, having served two terms in office, should not subsequently be allowed to hold a position within government administration or a position in the private sector directly dealing with the government.
That isn't such a good idea. One strength of the Canadian system is that it allows for politicians to serve for long periods of time and continually work toward their goals, as opposed to those goals constantly changing in four or eight-year intervals.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
Mulroney’s GST should be cancelled.
Where will the revenue be recovered?
I agree with your stance on free votes, but I think it should be taken a step further. I believe that party votes should be completely abolished, and made unconstitutional. MPs should always be obligated to vote in the best interest of their constituents.
Furthermore, what about Federal treatment of fuel taxes? The government should be Legally Obligated to use taxes collected for the purposes they are to be collected for.
Bigboy @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 4:32 pm
Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:
First off, quit stealing my color. Secondly, I think this is a very good start, but there are a number of issues I would like to raise.
HOWEVER, the Prime Minister (as leader of a party) IS elected by the Canadian people, via the election of enough MPs to form the government. So long as the practice of the leader of the governing party becoming Prime Minister endures, this will continue to be a reality.
While I can't say this is a bad idea, I also find it hard to believe that it would actually matter where in the country the conference is held.
This IS a bad idea. You obviously underestimate the differences between Canada and the United States historically, politically and culturally.
I like this idea. It's like a regularly scheduled check-up for our country.
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is, by essence, one for Canadians. It sets a higher benchmark for the treatment of human rights, and sets a fairly visible line in the sand about what practices Canada does and does not condone. All we really need are politicians who are prepared to address this issue where necessary.
This would eventually be twisted to serve as a shelter for ill-gotten wealth by various means (corporate crime, organized crime, drug trade, etc.) as it did for a time in the United States.
Not a good idea. Also, completely useless. Once an immigrant who lands in, say, Ontario becomes a Canadian citizen, he is free to move as he pleases. Furthermore, exactly what does this seek to accomplish?
Does this involve those who are fleeing from oppressive regimes and applying for refugee status being immediately sent back into the clutches of said oppressive regimes?
Canada can't afford a 10-year moratorium on immigration. In fact, no country on the planet can afford to put important business aside for a period so long.
In this case, are we looking at a Prime Minister who is elected separately from his MPs? I can't say this isn't a good idea.
That isn't such a good idea. One strength of the Canadian system is that it allows for politicians to serve for long periods of time and continually work toward their goals, as opposed to those goals constantly changing in four or eight-year intervals.
Where will the revenue be recovered?
I agree with your stance on free votes, but I think it should be taken a step further. I believe that party votes should be completely abolished, and made unconstitutional. MPs should always be obligated to vote in the best interest of their constituents.
Furthermore, what about Federal treatment of fuel taxes? The government should be Legally Obligated to use taxes collected for the purposes they are to be collected for.
shamus11 shamus11:
Canadians do not elect their prime minister. He/she is only elected leader of a political party by the members of that party. Canadians have no direct input into this decision.
HOWEVER, the Prime Minister (as leader of a party) IS elected by the Canadian people, via the election of enough MPs to form the government. So long as the practice of the leader of the governing party becoming Prime Minister endures, this will continue to be a reality.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
1. This constitutional conference should be held in a small town in a remote place in the West -- away from the central-Canada pressures (Quebec with $5.5 billion in equalization (welfare) payments annually) and away from the have-not Atlantic Provinces.
While I can't say this is a bad idea, I also find it hard to believe that it would actually matter where in the country the conference is held.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
2. It should run in the belief that if we don't get it right this time, Canada could eventually join the US, all together or one province at a time. This has many positive and many negative factors. Canadian soldiers have fought beside US soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War, Balkans and Afghanistan. The differences between Canadians and Americans are almost non existent -- same language, customs and history. Canadians have a federal health-care system and the Americans do not. This difference could be eliminated if or when the Americans get health care from their government.
This IS a bad idea. You obviously underestimate the differences between Canada and the United States historically, politically and culturally.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
3. A simple and easy amendment formula for the constitution should be worked out -- 3 provinces -- 25% of Canadians -- which cannot be blocked by federal politicians opposed to changes. A mandatory review of the constitution should be held every ten years on a certain date.
I like this idea. It's like a regularly scheduled check-up for our country.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
6. It should be a constitution for Canada and Canadians -- not an international Charter for “everyone” in the world, as per the present Charter of Trudeau and Chretien and loved by all international socialists.
The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms is, by essence, one for Canadians. It sets a higher benchmark for the treatment of human rights, and sets a fairly visible line in the sand about what practices Canada does and does not condone. All we really need are politicians who are prepared to address this issue where necessary.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
Property Rights
10. Canadians should have property rights in their Constitution, anywhere in Canada and should not be deprived of property without proper and legal compensation. (Not now.)
10. Canadians should have property rights in their Constitution, anywhere in Canada and should not be deprived of property without proper and legal compensation. (Not now.)
This would eventually be twisted to serve as a shelter for ill-gotten wealth by various means (corporate crime, organized crime, drug trade, etc.) as it did for a time in the United States.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
14. All immigration, as in Quebec and Switzerland, should be a provincial or a municipal issue.
Not a good idea. Also, completely useless. Once an immigrant who lands in, say, Ontario becomes a Canadian citizen, he is free to move as he pleases. Furthermore, exactly what does this seek to accomplish?
Shamus11 Shamus11:
15. Illegal immigrants should be kept in custody until they are deported as soon as possible. This should not require lawyers and courtroom appearances.
Does this involve those who are fleeing from oppressive regimes and applying for refugee status being immediately sent back into the clutches of said oppressive regimes?
Shamus11 Shamus11:
17. Canada should have a ten-year moratorium on immigration. No more acceptance of refugees unless each individual case is presented and discussed in parliament.
Canada can't afford a 10-year moratorium on immigration. In fact, no country on the planet can afford to put important business aside for a period so long.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
19. The prime minister, should be allowed only two terms in office, if he is reelected by all Canadians.
In this case, are we looking at a Prime Minister who is elected separately from his MPs? I can't say this isn't a good idea.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
20. All federal politicians should have fixed terms in office -- no more than two terms in any political office -- no more Canadian Chretiens, Cuban Castros or Mugabes of Zimbabwe. No more prime ministers for life or those attempting to manipulate the system and stay for life.
21. Politicians who, having served two terms in office, should not subsequently be allowed to hold a position within government administration or a position in the private sector directly dealing with the government.
21. Politicians who, having served two terms in office, should not subsequently be allowed to hold a position within government administration or a position in the private sector directly dealing with the government.
That isn't such a good idea. One strength of the Canadian system is that it allows for politicians to serve for long periods of time and continually work toward their goals, as opposed to those goals constantly changing in four or eight-year intervals.
Shamus11 Shamus11:
Mulroney’s GST should be cancelled.
Where will the revenue be recovered?
I agree with your stance on free votes, but I think it should be taken a step further. I believe that party votes should be completely abolished, and made unconstitutional. MPs should always be obligated to vote in the best interest of their constituents.
Furthermore, what about Federal treatment of fuel taxes? The government should be Legally Obligated to use taxes collected for the purposes they are to be collected for.
Provinces dont need any more powers, if they do get more they should be made (or ask) if people want Provincial Reform. I would in BC, and would like to limit Provincial partys. I think to many canadians assume provinces have less power then they have and dont pay enough attention to provincial politics
Patrick_Ross @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 5:19 pm
I would disagree with you. I think some of the ministries (Fisheries, for example) should be moslty regulated by the provinces. The Federal government should have a consultational role in the matter, but there is no reason to have all of these offices in Ottawa, as well as front-line offices.
Bigboy @ Wed Jun 22, 2005 7:04 pm
Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:
I would disagree with you. I think some of the ministries (Fisheries, for example) should be moslty regulated by the provinces. The Federal government should have a consultational role in the matter, but there is no reason to have all of these offices in Ottawa, as well as front-line offices.
Yeah i agree with that but if the liberals loose the next election hopefully stuff like that would begin to happen
Patrick_Ross @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:12 pm
It would be naive to expect that a Conservative victory in the next election would guarantee this. One thing Canadians have to start doing is pressuring ALL political parties to fulfill their election promises.
Zipperfish @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 2:45 pm
Many good ideas there, shamus. The whole effect is someone cheapened by comparison of Canada to Cuba or Zimbabwe or to dictatorships. If Canada is a dictatorship, then the world needs more dictatorships considering what a peaceful, free and prosperous country we are.
I'd sure like to see property rights enshrined in the Constitution. Great idea. Triple E senate -- great idea. Specified election date -- great idea. A lot of great ideas here.
There are a few inconsistenceies in your proposal. For instance you say that immigration should be a provincial issue, but then lay out a number of restrcitions in the federal Constitution on immigration. If it's provincial, it's provincial, and it shouldn't be up to the federal Constitution to decide who and who not to deport or jail. Personally I think issues involving international borders should be federal jurisdiction.
As far as the balanced budget thing goes -- that could be a problem should we ever go to war. Borrowing is often necessary to finance war.
As for pegging the Canadian dollar to the US dollar -- that's just silly. Why would completely abrogate sovereignty over our national fiscal policy like that? And how about we kep the GST and get rid of income taxes -- that would make more sense to me.
bootlegga @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 3:21 pm
shamus11 shamus11:
[color=blue]
[align=center] Fix Canada[/align]
2. It should run in the belief that if we don't get it right this time, Canada could eventually join the US, all together or one province at a time. This has many positive and many negative factors. Canadian soldiers have fought beside US soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War, Balkans and Afghanistan. The differences between Canadians and Americans are almost non existent -- same language, customs and history. Canadians have a federal health-care system and the Americans do not. This difference could be eliminated if or when the Americans get health care from their government.
[align=center] Fix Canada[/align]
2. It should run in the belief that if we don't get it right this time, Canada could eventually join the US, all together or one province at a time. This has many positive and many negative factors. Canadian soldiers have fought beside US soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War, Balkans and Afghanistan. The differences between Canadians and Americans are almost non existent -- same language, customs and history. Canadians have a federal health-care system and the Americans do not. This difference could be eliminated if or when the Americans get health care from their government.
I find it interesting that the way to "fix" Canada is to merge with the USA. Wouldn't that effectively destroy Canada as an entity?
As for most of the rest of these ideas, they are bascially the Conservative/Reform/Alliance platform. I think the reason Canadians haven't elected the right back into power is that we've seen what they offer and are no longer interested. Ontario in the last election was dying to vote Conservative until an Alberta MP started gay-bashing and Klein talked about dumping the Health Act. After that, they swung 180% and many voted Liberal or NDP. Canadians, in general, want a more centrist policy, and the current Conservatives are moving away from the centre, not towards it.
Had the party been smart, they would have elected Stronach (hell, or even Tony Clement) as the leader of the party, shedding their 'western cowboy' image and they would have won a lot of seats in Ontario, probably enough to form at least a minority government. Western farmers and businessmen tend to be the biggest supporters of the Conservatives, which is why they can't beat the Liberals. No party will ever win an election by telling the little guy that they are going to screw the little guy.
As for this "dysfunctional dictatorship" that can be said of other places in Canada. Alberta is a striking example where a Liberal/NDP minority (Edmonton largely) is isolated and given little or no voice in the Legislature. Why? Because 25,000 farmers have the same voting power as 100,000 Edmontonians...Edmonton, with almost 1/3 of Alberta's population has only 20% of the seats. The Conservatives have 'ruled' this province for over 30 years, and the Social Credit before them ran it for even longer. Yet you don't hear Edmontonians talking about separating and going their own way.
Personally, if you want to live in a society based on American beliefs (flat taxes, Triple E senate, free votes in Parliament, etc), then my thought is for you to move there, not change the rest of us into them. You'll save yourself a whole lot of effort and heartache that way.
Sharkull @ Thu Jun 23, 2005 9:18 pm
Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:
It would be naive to expect that a Conservative victory in the next election would guarantee this. One thing Canadians have to start doing is pressuring ALL political parties to fulfill their election promises.
Canadians don't want election promises to be kept. Mike Harris honoured every promise he made, and he was crucified in the Ontario press for it. Sure, there were a couple problems in his terms (Walkerton, SARS...) but he was not given any credit for keeping his promises. People don't want to hear that they got what they asked for... people want someone to blame.
Ruserious @ Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:50 pm
Sharkull Sharkull:
Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:
It would be naive to expect that a Conservative victory in the next election would guarantee this. One thing Canadians have to start doing is pressuring ALL political parties to fulfill their election promises.
Canadians don't want election promises to be kept. Mike Harris honoured every promise he made, and he was crucified in the Ontario press for it. Sure, there were a couple problems in his terms (Walkerton, SARS...) but he was not given any credit for keeping his promises. People don't want to hear that they got what they asked for... people want someone to blame.
So I suppose in your mind, the fact that his policies (Hatchet job) directly led to people dying because of a lack of water inspectors is simply tough luck for the town of Walkerton.
Let's not forget that bad meat because of a lack of meat inspectors, again, another Harrass casualty.
How about Ipperwash...
What say you about the 407 disaster that he personally authorised...
Or how about the debt that he left this province in while turning it over to his finance boy Eves to take the fall for.. which they both lied about..
The best thing about Mike Harrass, the day he resigned.
Ruserious @ Fri Jun 24, 2005 7:52 pm
bootlegga bootlegga:
shamus11 shamus11:
[color=blue]
[align=center] Fix Canada[/align]
2. It should run in the belief that if we don't get it right this time, Canada could eventually join the US, all together or one province at a time. This has many positive and many negative factors. Canadian soldiers have fought beside US soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War, Balkans and Afghanistan. The differences between Canadians and Americans are almost non existent -- same language, customs and history. Canadians have a federal health-care system and the Americans do not. This difference could be eliminated if or when the Americans get health care from their government.
[align=center] Fix Canada[/align]
2. It should run in the belief that if we don't get it right this time, Canada could eventually join the US, all together or one province at a time. This has many positive and many negative factors. Canadian soldiers have fought beside US soldiers in WW1, WW2, Korea, Gulf War, Balkans and Afghanistan. The differences between Canadians and Americans are almost non existent -- same language, customs and history. Canadians have a federal health-care system and the Americans do not. This difference could be eliminated if or when the Americans get health care from their government.
I find it interesting that the way to "fix" Canada is to merge with the USA. Wouldn't that effectively destroy Canada as an entity?
As for most of the rest of these ideas, they are bascially the Conservative/Reform/Alliance platform. I think the reason Canadians haven't elected the right back into power is that we've seen what they offer and are no longer interested. Ontario in the last election was dying to vote Conservative until an Alberta MP started gay-bashing and Klein talked about dumping the Health Act. After that, they swung 180% and many voted Liberal or NDP. Canadians, in general, want a more centrist policy, and the current Conservatives are moving away from the centre, not towards it.
Had the party been smart, they would have elected Stronach (hell, or even Tony Clement) as the leader of the party, shedding their 'western cowboy' image and they would have won a lot of seats in Ontario, probably enough to form at least a minority government. Western farmers and businessmen tend to be the biggest supporters of the Conservatives, which is why they can't beat the Liberals. No party will ever win an election by telling the little guy that they are going to screw the little guy.
As for this "dysfunctional dictatorship" that can be said of other places in Canada. Alberta is a striking example where a Liberal/NDP minority (Edmonton largely) is isolated and given little or no voice in the Legislature. Why? Because 25,000 farmers have the same voting power as 100,000 Edmontonians...Edmonton, with almost 1/3 of Alberta's population has only 20% of the seats. The Conservatives have 'ruled' this province for over 30 years, and the Social Credit before them ran it for even longer. Yet you don't hear Edmontonians talking about separating and going their own way.
Personally, if you want to live in a society based on American beliefs (flat taxes, Triple E senate, free votes in Parliament, etc), then my thought is for you to move there, not change the rest of us into them. You'll save yourself a whole lot of effort and heartache that way.
We have a winner.
$$$$$
Chigeeng @ Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:02 pm
Sharkull Sharkull:
Patrick_Ross Patrick_Ross:
It would be naive to expect that a Conservative victory in the next election would guarantee this. One thing Canadians have to start doing is pressuring ALL political parties to fulfill their election promises.
Canadians don't want election promises to be kept. Mike Harris honoured every promise he made, and he was crucified in the Ontario press for it. Sure, there were a couple problems in his terms (Walkerton, SARS...) but he was not given any credit for keeping his promises. People don't want to hear that they got what they asked for... people want someone to blame.
In large part they "balanced" the budget by selling off provincial assets, crown lands. Brascan made million dollars the first summer after buying the hydro generating stations on the Mississaugi River. Closing hospitals and amalgamating municipalities with less services as a result. I don't think they have solved the monsterous mess Harris made of the hospital situation in Sudbury.
Police have already stated that the only way they would alter SOP in a situation such as Ipperwash is for the order to come from the highest sources. Harris is known to be very anti Indian.
Bigboy @ Fri Jun 24, 2005 8:36 pm
Ruserious Ruserious:
bootlegga bootlegga:
shamus11 shamus11:
[color=blue]
Personally, if you want to live in a society based on American beliefs (flat taxes, Triple E senate, free votes in Parliament, etc), then my thought is for you to move there, not change the rest of us into them. You'll save yourself a whole lot of effort and heartache that way.
DING DING DING!!!Personally, if you want to live in a society based on American beliefs (flat taxes, Triple E senate, free votes in Parliament, etc), then my thought is for you to move there, not change the rest of us into them. You'll save yourself a whole lot of effort and heartache that way.
We have a winner.
$$$$$
Its not even that for me, If you think daycare wont end up costing alot, look at Quebec i think its over a billion and its not good enough they need to spend more. and anyone thinks the Liberals wont dump the full cost on the provinces down the road is fu*ked in the head!!
Its things like that, that make me mad. I mean maby Liberals like always being a colony of a richer country. Keep selling off are souventry by making new social programs when we cant afford to make the ones we have now work good. We should be fixing healthcare and the military and have nothing new till thats done! And wasting time on gay rights WTF! is that the biggest problem facing are country right now? is it worth all time its taken? i think not let provinces decide like they have been