It's about time. Liberals take aim at F-35
HyperionTheEvil @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 2:59 pm
http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/0 ... -jets.html
$1:
The Liberals say that if they form the next government, they will put on hold a much-rumoured $16-billion sole-sourced fighter jet contract that is widely expected to be announced Friday by the Conservative government.
In the meantime, the Liberals say they plan to call for yet another reconvening of a House of Commons committee, this time the defence committee, and demand Defence Minister Peter Mackay explain why such a large contract is not subject to a competitive process.
The deal, according to media reports, would see Canada buy 65 F-35 Lightning II fighter jets for $9 billion from Lockheed-Martin. Once maintenance costs over the life of the planes is factored in, the entire program is estimated to cost $16-billion.
Liberal industry critic Marc Garneau said at a news conference Thursday that if this is truly the best deal, then it would win the bid in an open process.
"We just spent $2.6 billion to upgrade our current fleet of CF-18 aircraft and the replacement date that's forecast for these aircraft is not until 2017," said Garneau. "We need to make sure that Canadians get the best possible deal in the circumstances," he said.
Under a previous Liberal government, Canada signed a memorandum of understanding in the 1990s with Lockheed-Martin as part of the company's Joint Strike Fighter program. But Garneau said that MOU does not bind Canada to buying the F-35s.
"The best way to do it, unless it's crystal clear that there is only one candidate that meets the need ... is to go to open tender, open competition, to make sure that the taxpayer is going to get the best deal," said Garneau. "It's not too late to do that."
He argues that putting a stop to such a contract would not be the same as when the Liberals cancelled the contract to build replacement helicopters in the 1990s, a decision that turned out to be more costly in the long run.
Garneau also played down the need to buy the same jets as the U.S. "I would not overplay the importance of compatibility," he said.
But he would not speculate on whether matching what the U.S. is buying is the reason the government might go with the sole-source contract.
"We've got to look at that, get the government to appear before the defence standing committee, to open itself up because it's been extremely secretive."
A $16-billion contract to build fighter jets would be one of the largest military projects in Canadian history, something Garneau says is noteworthy considering rumoured cuts to the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/0 ... z0tn5IOO7A
In the meantime, the Liberals say they plan to call for yet another reconvening of a House of Commons committee, this time the defence committee, and demand Defence Minister Peter Mackay explain why such a large contract is not subject to a competitive process.
The deal, according to media reports, would see Canada buy 65 F-35 Lightning II fighter jets for $9 billion from Lockheed-Martin. Once maintenance costs over the life of the planes is factored in, the entire program is estimated to cost $16-billion.
Liberal industry critic Marc Garneau said at a news conference Thursday that if this is truly the best deal, then it would win the bid in an open process.
"We just spent $2.6 billion to upgrade our current fleet of CF-18 aircraft and the replacement date that's forecast for these aircraft is not until 2017," said Garneau. "We need to make sure that Canadians get the best possible deal in the circumstances," he said.
Under a previous Liberal government, Canada signed a memorandum of understanding in the 1990s with Lockheed-Martin as part of the company's Joint Strike Fighter program. But Garneau said that MOU does not bind Canada to buying the F-35s.
"The best way to do it, unless it's crystal clear that there is only one candidate that meets the need ... is to go to open tender, open competition, to make sure that the taxpayer is going to get the best deal," said Garneau. "It's not too late to do that."
He argues that putting a stop to such a contract would not be the same as when the Liberals cancelled the contract to build replacement helicopters in the 1990s, a decision that turned out to be more costly in the long run.
Garneau also played down the need to buy the same jets as the U.S. "I would not overplay the importance of compatibility," he said.
But he would not speculate on whether matching what the U.S. is buying is the reason the government might go with the sole-source contract.
"We've got to look at that, get the government to appear before the defence standing committee, to open itself up because it's been extremely secretive."
A $16-billion contract to build fighter jets would be one of the largest military projects in Canadian history, something Garneau says is noteworthy considering rumoured cuts to the Department of Veterans Affairs.
Read more: http://www.cbc.ca/politics/story/2010/0 ... z0tn5IOO7A
So now the cost when all told for these jet is going to be 245,000,000 each$...WTF!!??
The conservatives has lost grasp with reality in the fiscal prudence department.
Bodah @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:20 pm
Do you think it's important to have an effective military or not ? Do you know how old our CF-18's are ?
"Liberal industry critic Marc Garneau said at a news conference Thursday that if this is truly the best deal, then it would win the bid in an open process."
There was one, Garneau should check his facts otherwise...
HyperionTheEvil @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 3:42 pm
Bodah Bodah:
Do you think it's important to have an effective military or not ? Do you know how old our CF-18's are ?
"Liberal industry critic Marc Garneau said at a news conference Thursday that if this is truly the best deal, then it would win the bid in an open process."
There was one, Garneau should check his facts otherwise...
"Liberal industry critic Marc Garneau said at a news conference Thursday that if this is truly the best deal, then it would win the bid in an open process."
There was one, Garneau should check his facts otherwise...
I do believe in an effective military, what i don't believe is Canadian Tax-payers have to be 'feared' into think that the item with the highest price tag is the best option for us. The Eurofighter is a perfectly capable unit for doing our job and at about a third the price.
This is not to mention that the contract was not open to other bidders so by it's very nature means a closed bid means were going to get screwed
Bodah @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:36 pm
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
The Eurofighter is a perfectly capable unit for doing our job and at about a third the price.
According to who ? Besides yourself.
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
This is not to mention that the contract was not open to other bidders so by it's very nature means a closed bid means were going to get screwed
Wrong.
$1:
"Contrary to Liberal myths, this was a competitive process. Canada participated in an extensive and rigorous competitive process where two bidders developed and competed prototype aircraft," said a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.
http://www.reuters.com/article/idUSN1523019820100715
HyperionTheEvil @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:39 pm
According to who ? Besides yourself.
The British who use it as a superiority figher
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
This is not to mention that the contract was not open to other bidders so by it's very nature means a closed bid means were going to get screwed
$1:
Wrong.
"Contrary to Liberal myths, this was a competitive process. Canada participated in an extensive and rigorous competitive process where two bidders developed and competed prototype aircraft," said a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.
"Contrary to Liberal myths, this was a competitive process. Canada participated in an extensive and rigorous competitive process where two bidders developed and competed prototype aircraft," said a spokesman for Defence Minister Peter MacKay.
When you intentionally create a bid that only fits one aircraft, that's not an open bid, it's bullshit
SprCForr @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:42 pm
I foresee SeaKing 2.0
CDN_PATRIOT @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 4:55 pm
$1:
The Liberals say that if they form the next government, they will put on hold a much-rumoured $16-billion sole-sourced fighter jet contract that is widely expected to be announced Friday by the Conservative government.
That's a rather gigantic 'IF'. Perhaps they should worry more about getting their own house in order first. In order to form a government, you need to not get squashed in the polls, and have an outsider as your leader that no one stands behind.As for the F-35.....don't get me wrong, the Eurofighter is a capable aircraft, BUT...I'd rather us have the F-35. As much as I hate stroking the ego of the Americans, they make some damn good fighters man. This is serious shit. We need to best, period. The F-35 is the future, which we need to be a part of. I'll miss the CF-18's though. Awesome plane regardless, and has served us well.
-J..
Bodah @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:08 pm
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
The British who use it as a superiority figher
Don't forget to mention they've also spent 2 billion on F-35s.
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
When you intentionally create a bid that only fits one aircraft, that's not an open bid, it's bullshit
Maybe that's the aircraft they specifically wanted. Granted I'm no military expert when it comes to military jets. But one thing it's known for is that it can be kept ,serviced yet still be effective for a long period of time, It's basically a UAV with a pilot, not bad methinks. So I don't see a problem with spending alot of money on something that's going to last 20+ years.
Bruce_the_vii @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 5:10 pm
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
So now the cost when all told for these jet is going to be 245,000,000 each$...WTF!!??
Gawwd
HyperionTheEvil @ Thu Jul 15, 2010 9:34 pm
$1:
Don't forget to mention they've also spent 2 billion on F-35s.
As opposed to what we are theoretically about to spend? times that much. The Eurofighter is more than capable of doing the job we need, there's no need for Tax-payers to have the government reaching into their wallets for a fighter program we can get which is just as effective and far more economical
$1:
Maybe that's the aircraft they specifically wanted. Granted I'm no military expert when it comes to military jets. But one thing it's known for is that it can be kept ,serviced yet still be effective for a long period of time, It's basically a UAV with a pilot, not bad methinks. So I don't see a problem with spending alot of money on something that's going to last 20+ years
I do so a problem with spending a lot of money, maybe you haven't noticed but its the average tax-payer who has to pick up the tab on these things. and as for 'what they wanted' who wanted , who wrote the "Tender" did they seriously look at the Eurofighter did they analyze what our needs really will be in 20 years?
I don't think so
Bruce_the_vii @ Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:24 am
the price tag is stunning. on the other hand if the alternatives are cheaper we should be hearing from those companies.
HyperionTheEvil @ Fri Jul 16, 2010 2:29 am
Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:
the price tag is stunning. on the other hand if the alternatives are cheaper we should be hearing from those companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
Perfect for our needs and a fraction of the cost, except the Con government never really had an open tender, they just jigged the 'requirements' so that only the F-35 would match them.
EyeBrock @ Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:34 am
HyperionTheEvil HyperionTheEvil:
Bruce_the_vii Bruce_the_vii:
the price tag is stunning. on the other hand if the alternatives are cheaper we should be hearing from those companies.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eurofighter_Typhoon
Perfect for our needs and a fraction of the cost, except the Con government never really had an open tender, they just jigged the 'requirements' so that only the F-35 would match them.
And the Typhoon Tranche Three’s are more expensive than the F35.
How many times do you need to be told? The Typhoon is an air superiority fighter with a specialised mission.
So specialised that the RAF and RN are buying F35's as the Typhoon doesn't cut it as a strike aircraft. It’s also a generation behind the F35.
You should stick to talking about grey boats with guns.
Oh and 65 into 9 billion is 138 million each.
One fish, two fishes, three fishes......fuck! How many fishes were there again?
EyeBrock @ Fri Jul 16, 2010 9:44 am
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
$1:
The Liberals say that if they form the next government, they will put on hold a much-rumoured $16-billion sole-sourced fighter jet contract that is widely expected to be announced Friday by the Conservative government.
That's a rather gigantic 'IF'. Perhaps they should worry more about getting their own house in order first. In order to form a government, you need to not get squashed in the polls, and have an outsider as your leader that no one stands behind.As for the F-35.....don't get me wrong, the Eurofighter is a capable aircraft, BUT...I'd rather us have the F-35. As much as I hate stroking the ego of the Americans, they make some damn good fighters man. This is serious shit. We need to best, period. The F-35 is the future, which we need to be a part of. I'll miss the CF-18's though. Awesome plane regardless, and has served us well.
-J..
The CF18 has served us well? Really?
Care to show me it's amazing CF combat record? Or even what a great job it's doing in Afghanistan?
It was an embarrassment in Bosnia with it’s out of date weapons systems, did nothing in Desert Storm for the same reasons and is currently guarding the approaches to the St Lawrence Seaway instead of supporting our pongos in Afghanistan.
Besides not being there when required in a theatre of war, CF18's did kick arse on Red Flag with camera guns....woo hoo!
Arctic_Menace @ Fri Jul 16, 2010 10:00 am
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
CDN_PATRIOT CDN_PATRIOT:
$1:
The Liberals say that if they form the next government, they will put on hold a much-rumoured $16-billion sole-sourced fighter jet contract that is widely expected to be announced Friday by the Conservative government.
That's a rather gigantic 'IF'. Perhaps they should worry more about getting their own house in order first. In order to form a government, you need to not get squashed in the polls, and have an outsider as your leader that no one stands behind.As for the F-35.....don't get me wrong, the Eurofighter is a capable aircraft, BUT...I'd rather us have the F-35. As much as I hate stroking the ego of the Americans, they make some damn good fighters man. This is serious shit. We need to best, period. The F-35 is the future, which we need to be a part of. I'll miss the CF-18's though. Awesome plane regardless, and has served us well.
-J..
The CF18 has served us well? Really?
Care to show me it's amazing CF combat record? Or even what a great job it's doing in Afghanistan?
It was an embarrassment in Bosnia with it’s out of date weapons systems, did nothing in Desert Storm for the same reasons and is currently guarding the approaches to the St Lawrence Seaway instead of supporting our pongos in Afghanistan.
Besides not being there when required in a theatre of war, CF18's did kick arse on Red Flag with camera guns....woo hoo!
And us getting the F-35 is going to change this how?
