Separation Is Not The Solution To Provincial Problems
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BartSimpson @ Tue Feb 12, 2019 5:52 pm
The best thing for First Nations members is when they can legitimately claim enrollment in a US tribe that has a casino. Then if they enroll as US citizens in the tribe they can start collecting casino dividends.
Douwe @ Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:45 pm
Thanos Thanos:
The Quebec separatists would have set up a harder socialist state if they'd gotten independence, one bordering on Marxism - Quebec separatism was hard-left in nature and remains so today. Hence the fleeing of investment and head offices to what was then a much more conservative Ontario. The money fled Quebec because the investors weren't going to leave it stranded there to be confiscated by a socialist Quebec government that would have been far too similar to Cuba or today's Venezuela.
If separatism happened in Alberta the exact opposite would happen. Abandonment of effectively all of the industry-stalling and job-killing regulation forced on us by Ottawa would attract investment like bears to honey. The argument remains to that Alberta would be able to negotiate a much better deal by ourselves, with no stupid conditions, with the US to get more pipelines into the US to access the existing and always-growing American pipeline system. That alone would ensure that more product got to market and it would put a permanent end to having the O&G market deliberately sabotaged by either neighbouring provinces or by the federal government.
Canada would be worse off economically without Alberta but Alberta would be far better off economically without Canada. This part is effectively inarguable. If it's boiled down to a bare-bones financial argument then Alberta is actually quite insane to stay in Canada because Canada will always act in a manner to the detriment of Alberta and it's finances.
If separatism happened in Alberta the exact opposite would happen. Abandonment of effectively all of the industry-stalling and job-killing regulation forced on us by Ottawa would attract investment like bears to honey. The argument remains to that Alberta would be able to negotiate a much better deal by ourselves, with no stupid conditions, with the US to get more pipelines into the US to access the existing and always-growing American pipeline system. That alone would ensure that more product got to market and it would put a permanent end to having the O&G market deliberately sabotaged by either neighbouring provinces or by the federal government.
Canada would be worse off economically without Alberta but Alberta would be far better off economically without Canada. This part is effectively inarguable. If it's boiled down to a bare-bones financial argument then Alberta is actually quite insane to stay in Canada because Canada will always act in a manner to the detriment of Alberta and it's finances.
Investment abhors political instability. Quebec's PQ was a moderate left wing party, not hard left. In fact, except for its separatist agenda it was it was no more radical than the NDP. And I don't see the pipeline situation being improved by separation. The US has already blocked one Alberta pipeline and could easily block another. In addition, there is the fact that the US is on the verge of being a net exporter of oil. In that case will it actually need Alberta's oil at all?
I will agree that Canada will be worse off without Alberta, but not because of what you might imagine. It is a simple fact that nations generally do not get stronger by getting smaller. In that sense neither Alberta nor Canada would gain by separation. Alberta missed its chance decades ago when oil prices were high. With Alberta's biggest customer now being almost self-sufficient and with oil prices plateauing the cash flow from oil revenue is not going to improve.
Freakinoldguy @ Tue Feb 12, 2019 10:55 pm
herbie herbie:
You're thinking of the bullshit in Hazelton where the elected Council is for the gas project but a couple hereditary Chiefs aren't? Where they didn't "let" anything, they got hauled off in cuffs?
Or you want to replace the "spineless" politicians who obey the laws and rights and compensate natives for land and resource extraction? Good luck on that one. Never gonna happen.
Tell you I almost cracked a buddy across the head when he came back from the oilfield last week, telling us how he "found out" from a co-worker that "Indians can choose if they're American or Canadian citizens" and most of those guys in Hazelton were from the USA rabble rousing. Fucking twit's lived and worked 25 years here among natives, but some doughead welder in Alberta spouts shit....
Or you want to replace the "spineless" politicians who obey the laws and rights and compensate natives for land and resource extraction? Good luck on that one. Never gonna happen.
Tell you I almost cracked a buddy across the head when he came back from the oilfield last week, telling us how he "found out" from a co-worker that "Indians can choose if they're American or Canadian citizens" and most of those guys in Hazelton were from the USA rabble rousing. Fucking twit's lived and worked 25 years here among natives, but some doughead welder in Alberta spouts shit....
Enbridge, Trans Mountain. Both stopped because of the Natives. All bands who's land was directly impacted by these infrastructure projects were on board but, a bunch of whiny losers who didn't get to suckle off the Gov't teat like they feel they're entitled to stopped them dead in their tracks.
As for your claim that Canadian politicians are are following the law by continually allowing natives to block indefinitely or forever all infrastructure programs that they don't agree with is according to the Supreme Court ruling wrong.
The law states the natives have to "consulted with" not "catered to" and "in some cases compensated" but that fact seems to have been conveniently ignored by both you and those law abiding politicians in Ottawa.
They may well have hauled off a few protesters but that's not how the natives stop infrastructure projects. They stop them by using an extremely compliant media and threatening to take the Canadian gov't to court. I'm assuming you can guess what happens next after that progressive approach to negotiations. The gov't caves like a bunch of spineless assholes despite having SCoC rulings that laid out the process for these projects because they don't want to be seen as uncaring or racist by overriding any of the natives demands.
What a system. Only in a Canadian version of a democracy could 1.5 million people run roughshod over 36 millon people to the detriment of the country.
herbie @ Thu Feb 14, 2019 3:49 pm
$1:
Its not shit, its called the Jay Treaty
Aware of that treaty, forgot the name of it. That's how we got peyote buttons and shrooms long long ago, they couldn't even search the guy's medicine bag.
I was referring to the notions that anyone was using it, or becoming a Canadian to protest (you're within your rights to come to Canada and protest regardless).
I would consider that site close to where I live and it would still take a day to get there from here.
Fly from Vancouver to Prince George (cheaper to get to Mexico or Hawaii). Sit on your butt for a few days to catch the train that runs twice a week. Rent a 4x4 and drive a coupe more hours. No bus. Train just stops, lets you off in the snow, no station, no roof, etc.
We live here, lived here through the Enbridge thing. And we read online bullshit about Americans and Hollywood celebs paying for all this. It's bullshit. I ran the copy shop, I can tell you the name of the girl who paid for the anti-pipeline posters. Woman across the street is from that tribe as is the stepson's father in law. LOCAL people not damn foreigners.
JaredMilne @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:43 pm
Thanos Thanos:
If separatism happened in Alberta the exact opposite would happen. Abandonment of effectively all of the industry-stalling and job-killing regulation forced on us by Ottawa would attract investment like bears to honey. The argument remains to that Alberta would be able to negotiate a much better deal by ourselves, with no stupid conditions, with the US to get more pipelines into the US to access the existing and always-growing American pipeline system. That alone would ensure that more product got to market and it would put a permanent end to having the O&G market deliberately sabotaged by either neighbouring provinces or by the federal government.
Canada would be worse off economically without Alberta but Alberta would be far better off economically without Canada. This part is effectively inarguable. If it's boiled down to a bare-bones financial argument then Alberta is actually quite insane to stay in Canada because Canada will always act in a manner to the detriment of Alberta and it's finances.
Canada would be worse off economically without Alberta but Alberta would be far better off economically without Canada. This part is effectively inarguable. If it's boiled down to a bare-bones financial argument then Alberta is actually quite insane to stay in Canada because Canada will always act in a manner to the detriment of Alberta and it's finances.
Except, as I pointed out in my original post, Alberta would be legally carved up like a turkey by people who would secede from the new country to rejoin Canada, the ROC would take the same hard line on negotiating with us that so many people, including Albertans, wanted Ottawa to take with Quebec back in '95, we'd have to print our own currency, we'd have to fight over how much of the national debt we'd take on, the Native Treaties would probably have to be renegotiated, we'd have to work out what kind of federal infrastructure we'd keep...
All that shit would take years to resolve, and until then the investment climate in Alberta would go from cold to glacial. The credit rating agencies won't know what investment ratings to give us, the uncertainty will drive the oil companies crazy, and we'll be all but broke as we have to take on all the obligations the feds pay for and pay for them ourselves.
Thanos Thanos:
There's also nothing that Canada provides materially to Alberta that just as easily, or even easier, can be gotten from the US. And, with a trade deal of some sort in place between an independent Alberta and the Americans, it could probably be accessed much cheaper from the US than it is to get from other Canadian provinces. Eliminate a tariff-mongering dick-head like Trump from the equation, because the US will have a sane president again one day, and such a deal would probably happen ASAP just because there's too much money for American companies to make here in sales. And there's too many resources that the US would want from Alberta that would no longer be tangled up in Canadian federal regulations or taxes. It would be a win-win scenario from the start to the finish of the negotiations for both the US and Alberta.
More like a win scenario for the Americans and a lose-lose-lose situation for us, since we'd have little to no leverage in negotiations with the U.S. and they could effectively bend us over and give us a good stiff reaming. And I don't know if the Americans would be willing to make a separate trade deal just with us, not when NAFTA is already meant to cover the continent. We likely wouldn't be able to get into NAFTA either, not with an already-sore ROC with much more leverage in Washington already in our way.
Thanos Thanos:
And, as the rest of Canada likes to remind us, Alberta and the US share a similar mentality on a lot of issues. Therefore any negotiations between the two countries wouldn't be hampered by any of that Canadian cultural "uniqueness" nonsense that made such a fuss out of the old FTA deal in the Mulroney days.
The similarities between us and the U.S. are greatly exaggerated both by our biggest critics and our biggest supporters. When Ernest Manning was saying and doing things that would have gotten him hauled in front of the House Un-American Activities Committee in the U.S., his son Preston saying things that would have gotten him crucified in the Bible Belt, Peter Lougheed engaging in province-building with the same gusto as any federal government's spent money on nation-building, the vast majority of Albertans shrugging their shoulders on issues like gay rights and marriages, and pro-life activists being unable to get much traction to revive the abortion debate even in Alberta, we'd be a purple state at the best in the United States...and even that's likely stretching it.
Thanos @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:27 pm
No. Unilateral declaration of independence, spontaneous, with no negotiations period. What's inside Alberta is ours, what's outside is theirs. What would Ottawa really do anyway in a scenario like, send the non-existent Canadian military in to start dropping bombs on us, all to keep people they detest inside of a disintegrating confederation. Open the place for business and business will take care of all the details. Canada can have everything,say, from a line starting 200 km north of Ft. McMurray if they want, just leave the horrifying oilsands that absolutely DISGUST! them behind with us. They're so much more moral than Alberta is so they won't have to soil their hands with any of the product or money that comes out of here anymore.
I actually think there'd be a net migration into Alberta if this happened from people across Canada coming here for a new start in a new state that certainly wouldn't be run as stupidly awful as the current arrangement is. Some would leave Alberta, but more would arrive, just to get away from the malicious silliness of the Laurentian Consensus. Probably end up with half the Maritimes as a result, given the botch job Central Canada's done on them for the last 150 years that turned them into perpetual have-nots.
BartSimpson @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:37 pm
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
...Alberta would be legally carved up like a turkey by people who would secede from the new country to rejoin Canada...
Unless Alberta seceded from Canada in order to join the USA. If we accepted them into the USA then there's zero chance we'd allow the province state to be dismembered by Canadian courts, tribunals, parliament, First Nations, or Tim Horton's.
herbie @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:00 pm
This is a country ruled by law, not armies.
Alberta was created by an Act of Parliament, it could be returned to Territory Status by an Act of Parliament.
BartSimpson @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:09 pm
herbie herbie:
This is a country ruled by law, not armies.
Alberta was created by an Act of Parliament, it could be returned to Territory Status by an Act of Parliament.
Alberta was created by an Act of Parliament, it could be returned to Territory Status by an Act of Parliament.
If Alberta secedes from Canadian rule then Canadian laws no longer apply. And you people will really need to invest in your army if you expect to invade and conquer Alberta.
peck420 @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:32 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
If Alberta secedes from Canadian rule then Canadian laws no longer apply. And you people will really need to invest in your army if you expect to invade and conquer Alberta.
You are mistaking FN land for Alberta land.
If Alberta cedes, and FN in Alberta do not, their land will not be ceded to begin with, and not party to joining the US.
As for the US conquering and holding Alberta....sorry, if that were within your capabilities, you would not be negotiating with the Taliban right now.
Thanos @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:57 pm
A rebellious province or colony, as Alberta is regarded anyway by the masters of the Laurentian Consensus, is under no obligation to obey or live by the laws of the state that is is leaving behind.
As an older and much better generation of Americans would probably have said, bend the knee to the old rulers? Come and make us. 
herbie @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:14 pm
Ok then, we'll just give it back to the Hudson's Bay Company. Maybe they can use the oil money to stage a big recovery.
Or one day there will be a movie with Mel Gibson hollering FREE-DUMB while he swings from the gallows.
Who knows.
We're just moderately humoured by Alberta separatism, it'll take another hundred years of whining (even when the PM's from Calgary) to get taken seriously.
And I'm humoured by the helpful suggestions from a country that would offer even less respect, it's the WALL that's a national emergency.
Shit, steal that idea. It might actually work! Pressure everyone to have it declared so. You'd get majority support across Canada for that (if you believe the pro and anti pipeline polling numbers).
Thanos @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 7:51 pm
Sorry, I keep forgetting that any criticism of Trudeau The Elder's paradise is heresy. CORRECTION! EVERYTHING IN CANADA IS PERFECT! CARRY ON WITH YOUR APPOINTED TASK SCHEDULE! ENDUT! HOCH HECH!
Canadians... 
+ 
Douwe @ Fri Feb 15, 2019 8:19 pm
JaredMilne JaredMilne:
Except, as I pointed out in my original post, Alberta would be legally carved up like a turkey by people who would secede from the new country to rejoin Canada, the ROC would take the same hard line on negotiating with us that so many people, including Albertans, wanted Ottawa to take with Quebec back in '95, we'd have to print our own currency, we'd have to fight over how much of the national debt we'd take on, the Native Treaties would probably have to be renegotiated, we'd have to work out what kind of federal infrastructure we'd keep...
All that shit would take years to resolve, and until then the investment climate in Alberta would go from cold to glacial. The credit rating agencies won't know what investment ratings to give us, the uncertainty will drive the oil companies crazy, and we'll be all but broke as we have to take on all the obligations the feds pay for and pay for them ourselves.
More like a win scenario for the Americans and a lose-lose-lose situation for us, since we'd have little to no leverage in negotiations with the U.S. and they could effectively bend us over and give us a good stiff reaming. And I don't know if the Americans would be willing to make a separate trade deal just with us, not when NAFTA is already meant to cover the continent. We likely wouldn't be able to get into NAFTA either, not with an already-sore ROC with much more leverage in Washington already in our way.
The similarities between us and the U.S. are greatly exaggerated both by our biggest critics and our biggest supporters. When Ernest Manning was saying and doing things that would have gotten him hauled in front of the House Un-American Activities Committee in the U.S., his son Preston saying things that would have gotten him crucified in the Bible Belt, Peter Lougheed engaging in province-building with the same gusto as any federal government's spent money on nation-building, the vast majority of Albertans shrugging their shoulders on issues like gay rights and marriages, and pro-life activists being unable to get much traction to revive the abortion debate even in Alberta, we'd be a purple state at the best in the United States...and even that's likely stretching it.
All that shit would take years to resolve, and until then the investment climate in Alberta would go from cold to glacial. The credit rating agencies won't know what investment ratings to give us, the uncertainty will drive the oil companies crazy, and we'll be all but broke as we have to take on all the obligations the feds pay for and pay for them ourselves.
More like a win scenario for the Americans and a lose-lose-lose situation for us, since we'd have little to no leverage in negotiations with the U.S. and they could effectively bend us over and give us a good stiff reaming. And I don't know if the Americans would be willing to make a separate trade deal just with us, not when NAFTA is already meant to cover the continent. We likely wouldn't be able to get into NAFTA either, not with an already-sore ROC with much more leverage in Washington already in our way.
The similarities between us and the U.S. are greatly exaggerated both by our biggest critics and our biggest supporters. When Ernest Manning was saying and doing things that would have gotten him hauled in front of the House Un-American Activities Committee in the U.S., his son Preston saying things that would have gotten him crucified in the Bible Belt, Peter Lougheed engaging in province-building with the same gusto as any federal government's spent money on nation-building, the vast majority of Albertans shrugging their shoulders on issues like gay rights and marriages, and pro-life activists being unable to get much traction to revive the abortion debate even in Alberta, we'd be a purple state at the best in the United States...and even that's likely stretching it.
Excellent post. You have clearly outlined the can of worms that separation would open up.
herbie @ Sat Feb 16, 2019 10:21 am
Oh Jeez Thanos quit moping already,
What do you think of a 'national emergency' strategy to get things going? Think any party would roll the dice on that approach?
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