The price of legalizing pot is too high
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ASLplease @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:11 pm
Yes, I wonder if I can find the article again, but I remember seeing an article on the costs related to legalized marijuana in that pothead country of Europe.....what was it's name again?
Gunnair @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:33 pm
Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
Gunnair Gunnair:
DerbyX DerbyX:
Kinda easy to make a "because its illegal" argument too. Sorta like "because I said so" and I'm sure you wouldn't just accept it if the government said that to something you enjoy.
I usually don't indulge myself in illegal activities, that way I don't get so easily disappointed.
'Just Because', the first sign of a stupid rule. - George Carlin
Quoting George Carlin, the first sign of a stupid argument.
Gunnair @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:33 pm
Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Mr_Canada Mr_Canada:
When you can stop being an ignorant superficial partisan clown and actually explain what you assume would happen, THEN we can have an intellectual debate.
So far you haven't given any reason against legalization.
Why should Supports of Legalization have to defend our views when you won't even properly present yours?
So far you haven't given any reason against legalization.
Why should Supports of Legalization have to defend our views when you won't even properly present yours?
Because marijuana is illegal. It's not required to justify that to the small percentage of potheads with maturity issues.
Small amount?
So you disregard the 53% of Canadians who either smoke pot or sympathize with those who do? They have "maturity issues"?
Your only argument is "because".
That makes this so much easier. Thanks.
I figured you'd need it to be easy in order for you to keep up.
You're welcome.
DerbyX @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 8:36 pm
Gunnair Gunnair:
DerbyX DerbyX:
Gunnair Gunnair:
Kinda easy to make these arguments, Derby.
Kinda easy to make a "because its illegal" argument too. Sorta like "because I said so" and I'm sure you wouldn't just accept it if the government said that to something you enjoy.
I usually don't indulge myself in illegal activities, that way I don't get so easily disappointed.
Usually? So you do indulge sometimes. The fact that you don't indulge in pot is your choice. You might also not smoke, gamble, or drink even if they are legal. The reality is that lots of people do and want the law changed just as people have done over the centuries against laws they considered unjust.
Thanos @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:05 pm
dino_bobba_renno dino_bobba_renno:
You all ways hear about how great decriminalizing pot would be and how it would not only save but make money and free up the courts from those who support it. One thing you don't ever hear mention of though are the costs associated with it. New laws need to be made and enforced even if it is decriminalized, that in turn would require a increased need for policing. There are social costs associated with the increased use that be a unavoidable result and again you would see a cost in terms of rehabilitation and treatment for addictions which is all ready stretched to it's limits. Increased health costs, not to mention the irony in the fact that we just spent the last 10 or 15 years trying to get people to quite smoking and now you want to turn around and say "smoking cigarettes = bad, smoking pot = ok".
These are just a few things that come with legalizing pot, and there are plenty more where those came from.
These are just a few things that come with legalizing pot, and there are plenty more where those came from.
What's really laughable is the idea that the gangsters who are growing pot right now are suddenly going to become good corporate citizens, start paying business taxes, and submit themselves to government-mandated product quality control codes. The whole concept is beyond ridiculous. Pot growing and trafficking is forever going to be tied to organized crime and tax evaders. All of this dopey well-wishing on the part of a few potheads isn't going to change the basic nature of how the illegal narcotics business operates.
Lemmy @ Wed Jun 10, 2009 9:29 pm
Thanos Thanos:
What's really laughable is the idea that the gangsters who are growing pot right now are suddenly going to become good corporate citizens, start paying business taxes, and submit themselves to government-mandated product quality control codes. The whole concept is beyond ridiculous. Pot growing and trafficking is forever going to be tied to organized crime and tax evaders. All of this dopey well-wishing on the part of a few potheads isn't going to change the basic nature of how the illegal narcotics business operates.
I TOTALLY agree with you on your assessment of the nature of thugs. But the time tested best solution to fighting thugs is to eliminate their source of revenue. If you take away the pot percentage of their revenue, that's a big hit. Given that pot, I suspect, is their #1 revenue source, it's not just a pot-head solution to make it legal. It's sound law enforcement technique.
ASLplease @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 6:54 am
Some people say that we should legalize drugs, gambling and prostitution and then tax the hell out of it.
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
ASLplease @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:01 am
yep, lets all be politically correct liberals and rephrase the whole idea into "for no other reason, lets legalize it so we can tax it"
It sickens me to think that this is sound logic for open minded educated people.
Lemmy @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:04 am
No, you can't tax the hell out of it. If you do that, you create an opportunity for a black market. You can tax it, but you have to be very careful in how you choose the rate of the excise tax.
No one wants their children to have unprotected sex or speed on motorcycles or drink and drive, but ultimately we need to allow people to make their own moral choices. The greatest evil that can come of this fear is that we allow the government to become our defacto parents. I have my own parents that taught me right from wrong. I don't need the government doing my parents' job and I don't want to pay for the government to do others' parenting for them.
ASLplease @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:10 am
Most of these things were and are illegal when I was growing up. yet, I don't see how I was stopped from making my own moral choices?
I, too, am fearful of the government becoming the parent. However, I am more fearful of a government that wants to tie their financial purse strings to negative welfare of my children.
Government with parental principles are harder to find than government that is motivated by money and greed.
DerbyX @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:16 am
ASLplease ASLplease:
Some people say that we should legalize drugs, gambling and prostitution and then tax the hell out of it.
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
Who wants their child doing porn or stripping? Thats legal. Prostitution is already legal in Canada but under certain circumstances. Most parents if not all don't want their child to smoke and thats legal.
The fact is that a lot of things are legal that could be made illegal in order to "protect us". The question is do we want to live in a society like that?
Making things legal provides protection and a means of control. Look at the US and its storied history of legal and illegal alcohol production. Moonshining is still done in the states. Hell, uncle Jesse was a moonshiner. Those Americans don't want the government telling them they can't make alcohol. At least when its legal the government has some control over the quality, sale, and distribution. As already posted many times the government takes in loads of money by taxing it and they use that money to fund schools and hospitals, money that would be made up elsewhere.
For things like prostitution it provides a measure of control and protection for the women or at least more women then currently. Look at the pron industry and the exotic dancer industry. Both are legal and governed by the same laws that govern all the other industries. Women in those fields actually are empowered to a great degree. In porn its the women who call the shots especially if they make a name for themselves and so to in stripping. Quite a few of them fully control their lives and do that job because they can make a lot of money for their families or to put themselves through school. At their job they are protected by workplace laws just as a cashier is at theirs. Illegality wouldn't stop the activity but it would put those women at the mercy of their employers because the law would not be there to protect them and might be there to prosecute them.
Legality may not eliminate all the problems but it will sure as hell minimize the bulk of them. Quite frankly illegality and a harsh penal system has failed and failed miserably. The US is a prime example. The harsher they get he worse the problem becomes. All you get is a far greater strain on the tax-payers as you need to fund more police, judges, and lawyers (we pay to defend drug dealers too). We also pay for a very expensive penal system to house them, a system that only insures that when they get out they are better and more connected criminals with no chance to go straight.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The insanity of the current war on drugs is just that. We keep trying the same thing over and over expecting that someday everybody will just throw their hands up in the air and give up. Thats not going to happen. The war is over and the law has lost. It was always going to lose because you cannot legislate morality which is entirely what the law is trying to do.
DerbyX @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:17 am
ASLplease ASLplease:
Most of these things were and are illegal when I was growing up. yet, I don't see how I was stopped from making my own moral choices?
I, too, am fearful of the government becoming the parent. However, I am more fearful of a government that wants to tie their financial purse strings to negative welfare of my children.
Government with parental principles are harder to find than government that is motivated by money and greed.
I, too, am fearful of the government becoming the parent. However, I am more fearful of a government that wants to tie their financial purse strings to negative welfare of my children.
Government with parental principles are harder to find than government that is motivated by money and greed.
Then teach your children right and wrong instead of relying on a government to force it on them.
ASLplease @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:30 am
DerbyX DerbyX:
ASLplease ASLplease:
Some people say that we should legalize drugs, gambling and prostitution and then tax the hell out of it.
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
Who wants their child doing porn or stripping? Thats legal. Prostitution is already legal in Canada but under certain circumstances. Most parents if not all don't want their child to smoke and thats legal.
The fact is that a lot of things are legal that could be made illegal in order to "protect us". The question is do we want to live in a society like that?
Making things legal provides protection and a means of control. Look at the US and its storied history of legal and illegal alcohol production. Moonshining is still done in the states. Hell, uncle Jesse was a moonshiner. Those Americans don't want the government telling them they can't make alcohol. At least when its legal the government has some control over the quality, sale, and distribution. As already posted many times the government takes in loads of money by taxing it and they use that money to fund schools and hospitals, money that would be made up elsewhere.
For things like prostitution it provides a measure of control and protection for the women or at least more women then currently. Look at the pron industry and the exotic dancer industry. Both are legal and governed by the same laws that govern all the other industries. Women in those fields actually are empowered to a great degree. In porn its the women who call the shots especially if they make a name for themselves and so to in stripping. Quite a few of them fully control their lives and do that job because they can make a lot of money for their families or to put themselves through school. At their job they are protected by workplace laws just as a cashier is at theirs. Illegality wouldn't stop the activity but it would put those women at the mercy of their employers because the law would not be there to protect them and might be there to prosecute them.
Legality may not eliminate all the problems but it will sure as hell minimize the bulk of them. Quite frankly illegality and a harsh penal system has failed and failed miserably. The US is a prime example. The harsher they get he worse the problem becomes. All you get is a far greater strain on the tax-payers as you need to fund more police, judges, and lawyers (we pay to defend drug dealers too). We also pay for a very expensive penal system to house them, a system that only insures that when they get out they are better and more connected criminals with no chance to go straight.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The insanity of the current war on drugs is just that. We keep trying the same thing over and over expecting that someday everybody will just throw their hands up in the air and give up. Thats not going to happen. The war is over and the law has lost. It was always going to lose because you cannot legislate morality which is entirely what the law is trying to do.
We've covered this in great detail before, and those issues were shown to be flawed. Are you trying to stir up trouble for this thread?
ASLplease @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:32 am
DerbyX DerbyX:
ASLplease ASLplease:
Most of these things were and are illegal when I was growing up. yet, I don't see how I was stopped from making my own moral choices?
I, too, am fearful of the government becoming the parent. However, I am more fearful of a government that wants to tie their financial purse strings to negative welfare of my children.
Government with parental principles are harder to find than government that is motivated by money and greed.
I, too, am fearful of the government becoming the parent. However, I am more fearful of a government that wants to tie their financial purse strings to negative welfare of my children.
Government with parental principles are harder to find than government that is motivated by money and greed.
Then teach your children right and wrong instead of relying on a government to force it on them.
I did/I will.
They won't be supporting the idea to enhance government revenues through expanding the sex and drug trade.
DerbyX @ Thu Jun 11, 2009 7:38 am
ASLplease ASLplease:
DerbyX DerbyX:
ASLplease ASLplease:
Some people say that we should legalize drugs, gambling and prostitution and then tax the hell out of it.
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
But who wants their sons to shoot heroin? Who wants their daughters to be used as a sex tool to enhance government revenues?
The question then: Who wants their child to be treated as a resource to be milked by the government for revenue? Who wants to offer up their child’s body to be used for that?
Who wants their child doing porn or stripping? Thats legal. Prostitution is already legal in Canada but under certain circumstances. Most parents if not all don't want their child to smoke and thats legal.
The fact is that a lot of things are legal that could be made illegal in order to "protect us". The question is do we want to live in a society like that?
Making things legal provides protection and a means of control. Look at the US and its storied history of legal and illegal alcohol production. Moonshining is still done in the states. Hell, uncle Jesse was a moonshiner. Those Americans don't want the government telling them they can't make alcohol. At least when its legal the government has some control over the quality, sale, and distribution. As already posted many times the government takes in loads of money by taxing it and they use that money to fund schools and hospitals, money that would be made up elsewhere.
For things like prostitution it provides a measure of control and protection for the women or at least more women then currently. Look at the pron industry and the exotic dancer industry. Both are legal and governed by the same laws that govern all the other industries. Women in those fields actually are empowered to a great degree. In porn its the women who call the shots especially if they make a name for themselves and so to in stripping. Quite a few of them fully control their lives and do that job because they can make a lot of money for their families or to put themselves through school. At their job they are protected by workplace laws just as a cashier is at theirs. Illegality wouldn't stop the activity but it would put those women at the mercy of their employers because the law would not be there to protect them and might be there to prosecute them.
Legality may not eliminate all the problems but it will sure as hell minimize the bulk of them. Quite frankly illegality and a harsh penal system has failed and failed miserably. The US is a prime example. The harsher they get he worse the problem becomes. All you get is a far greater strain on the tax-payers as you need to fund more police, judges, and lawyers (we pay to defend drug dealers too). We also pay for a very expensive penal system to house them, a system that only insures that when they get out they are better and more connected criminals with no chance to go straight.
Insanity is doing the same thing over and over and expecting a different result. The insanity of the current war on drugs is just that. We keep trying the same thing over and over expecting that someday everybody will just throw their hands up in the air and give up. Thats not going to happen. The war is over and the law has lost. It was always going to lose because you cannot legislate morality which is entirely what the law is trying to do.
We've covered this in great detail before, and those issues were shown to be flawed. Are you trying to stir up trouble for this thread?
Actually no one has shown a single issue on that list is flawed nor been able to counter it. In fact so far nobody any where is able to counter a single legalize drugs point (without admitting half of society today should be outlawed) in any coherent way.
All they ever really say is "I don't like drugs personally so therefore they should be outlawed).
Society is steadily and steadily moving towards that goal. Its just taking time for people to accept it (and for set in their ways old people to die out) just like it did for accepting homosexuality, womens rights, etc.
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