Young offenders
Richard @ Sat Dec 18, 2004 9:41 pm
Is it a good thing or boring to live in a completly black and white world Scape.
Twila @ Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:06 pm
How about this. A sort of compromise.
Let them reside in juevnile detention. Where in those 5 years they will have met more juevnile deliquents (who they now relate better to) they can then enjoy each others company. They will undoubtedly commit another crime with in 1 yr of release and probably with their new bestest friends. They will then be adults and can now go to adult court and adult jail. I vote for provincial jail (under 2 yrs jail time) where they should be incarcerated in gp (general population) where the inmates there will take care of the problem for us. No appeals. No tax money on lawyers.
It'll be fine.
Richard @ Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:16 pm
That is pretty much what happens now. I was hoping to figurre out a better idea to resolve the spining door.
Twila @ Sat Dec 18, 2004 10:28 pm
The revolving door eh? You know that if you come up with the answer your going to put a whole lot of people out of work.
But your right. That is what happens now. I think that you should have to have a licence to have kids. You have to pay for that licence. Take a course or 2.\
What kind of society condones teenage pregnancy and teenage parent hood but won't allow same teenagers to drink?
"sorry child. your not mature enough to drink. But you can raise a child if you like. hell the gov't will even pay for it."
All right. Sorry about that rant. I'm currently watching my daughter's friend live through hell. Why? Because MCF wants to give the mother (a fetal alcohol syndrome suffering diabetic who has alcohol problems eye problems legs problems back problems has 4 cats.4 guinea pigs. 1 Rabbit. 8 rats. 3 degues and is on welfare the chance to do right. This child is forced to skip 2 days a month of school to help her mom bring food back from the food bank. This child is forced to spend hours everyday feeding. and cleaning up after her mothers pets. This child is living in appalling conditions next to druggies. junkies. and alcoholics. I've called MCF. They sent someone over. End of story. I'll call again. and I'll call again. And I'll call again. And I'll call the SPCA and then I'll call MCF again.
Meantime this poor little girl will grow up. hit puberty. find a "nice" guy who'd going to take her away from it all. She'll be making money doing $10.00 blow jobs to support her new habit and his old habit. She'll have kids and the patern repeats and repeats.
Her mother is second generation.......fuck up. This child will be 3rd generation fuck up.
So if you DO come up with the answer can my daughters friends mother jump to the head of the line?
I'm thinking the answer will require a complete and utter overhaul of all current judicial and justice systems. It will also require societies ability to accept the blame for the things they've done and not be allowed to place it on their parents. Because at the end of the day. The only one responsible for you is YOU.
Richard @ Sat Dec 18, 2004 11:00 pm
That is the general idea of this post Twila is to discuss some possible solutions. Have you got some ideas. I am hoping that this string will have some good ideas and less name calling and the like.
Scape @ Sun Dec 19, 2004 12:54 am
If this was manslaughter or less I could see rehab being an option but let's look at this. We have Kidnapping, assault, rape, torture and 2nd degree murder in the span of a three hours where the victim was begging for his life and force to perform oral sex while being beaten with 10K rocks while screwed up the ass twice and with a broom. Some how saying I'm sorry ain't gonna cut it. Jail time is meaningless for the crime was not done for gain of any sort what-so-ever. The only reason they did this was that they can. If they act like animals, and there can be no defending such an act of utter depravity, they should be treated like animals and destroyed. What is to rehabilitate? If it was manslaughter, like a fight that got out of hand, I could see rehab having a use but that clearly is not the case. This is more than just because they had parents who let this happen and let their kids go wild. They should be in jail too and pay the victims families a tithe for the rest of their lives as restitution. The children who did this are not misguided souls that have stumbled from the path, they are soulless deviants that have no redeemable features and did not show an ounce of remorse until they were caught. They were 16 and 20 years old and were old enough to know what evil is and they enjoyed it.
Richard @ Sun Dec 19, 2004 2:43 am
How much do you really know Scape. Did the 16 yr old do what he did out of self preservation? .
Scape @ Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:26 am
$1:
HORRIFIC DETAILS
The teen was with Robbie on April 18, 2002, and played a vicious role, as over the course of three hours Robbie was killed.
He was raped, and then raped with a stick, forced to watch others have intercourse, burned at least five times with cigarettes, urinated on in his mouth, held down and kicked again and again, kicked so hard he had a boot imprint on his head, stoned with 10-kilo rocks, and then left for dead in a Caledon forest with more than 40 distinct injuries.
And his family said no one knows why.
"It was absolutely horrendous. This was a brutal torture," said Robbie's stepmother Cheryl McLennan.
In his Orangeville home town, Robbie was known as "the gentle giant," a six-foot, 16-year-old who loved sports, especially fishing.
He adored his younger brother.
"He was a big teddy bear," his mom Kathy Bradley said.
McLennan said she never even heard her stepson say a bad word.
"Robbie was always up to good," she said. "He was always a good, good kid. He was very naive and very trusting. He was always popping around looking for a new friend."
Robbie went to the forest the night he died with a 16-year-old acquaintance from Orangeville District Secondary School -- the teen who pleaded guilty yesterday -- and a transient couple he had just met from Scarborough, a 20-year-old man and a 16-year-old girl.
They went to socialize and hang out. The others drank and did drugs. Robbie did not.
The 20-year-old drank so much he started to vomit, which made Robbie laugh, court documents show. That's when Robbie's nightmare began.
The court heard that the 20-year-old charged Robbie, kicking him and punching him. He then forced Robbie to perform fellatio on him, court documents say.
In one of the most gruesomely shocking episodes, the 20-year-old then urinated in Robbie's mouth and raped him while the others watched, court heard.
When he finished, the other 16-year-old boy forced Robbie to fellate him, afterwards raping Robbie with a stick as he spit on him, according to the agreed statement-of-fact.
When the rape ended, the transient couple had sex in front of Robbie before they began the beating that would end his life.
The trio beat on Robbie, one holding him down as others hit him with stones and sticks, leaving him begging for his life, the court heard.
The 16-year-old boy stood on Robbie as the couple took turns kicking him in the face. Each time they shouted at Robbie to look at their shoe before they kicked him.
The court heard that Robbie offered his jacket if they would let him live. The court heard he even promised to lie, vowing to tell people his many injuries were from a car accident.
It didn't help.
'FINISH HIM OFF'
The court heard that as Robbie lay helpless on the ground, the girl said "finish him off."
The two other males threw heavy rocks at his head. When Robbie was found the next day, two rocks had his blood on them.
Throughout the beating, the court heard, cigarettes were extinguished on Robbie to see if he was still alive.
A pathologist couldn't determine whether it was the kicks to the head or the stoning that killed him.
But they concluded that the death was not instant and ensued over a matter of hours.
The transient couple involved are scheduled to face trial in 2005.
The teen was with Robbie on April 18, 2002, and played a vicious role, as over the course of three hours Robbie was killed.
He was raped, and then raped with a stick, forced to watch others have intercourse, burned at least five times with cigarettes, urinated on in his mouth, held down and kicked again and again, kicked so hard he had a boot imprint on his head, stoned with 10-kilo rocks, and then left for dead in a Caledon forest with more than 40 distinct injuries.
And his family said no one knows why.
"It was absolutely horrendous. This was a brutal torture," said Robbie's stepmother Cheryl McLennan.
In his Orangeville home town, Robbie was known as "the gentle giant," a six-foot, 16-year-old who loved sports, especially fishing.
He adored his younger brother.
"He was a big teddy bear," his mom Kathy Bradley said.
McLennan said she never even heard her stepson say a bad word.
"Robbie was always up to good," she said. "He was always a good, good kid. He was very naive and very trusting. He was always popping around looking for a new friend."
Robbie went to the forest the night he died with a 16-year-old acquaintance from Orangeville District Secondary School -- the teen who pleaded guilty yesterday -- and a transient couple he had just met from Scarborough, a 20-year-old man and a 16-year-old girl.
They went to socialize and hang out. The others drank and did drugs. Robbie did not.
The 20-year-old drank so much he started to vomit, which made Robbie laugh, court documents show. That's when Robbie's nightmare began.
The court heard that the 20-year-old charged Robbie, kicking him and punching him. He then forced Robbie to perform fellatio on him, court documents say.
In one of the most gruesomely shocking episodes, the 20-year-old then urinated in Robbie's mouth and raped him while the others watched, court heard.
When he finished, the other 16-year-old boy forced Robbie to fellate him, afterwards raping Robbie with a stick as he spit on him, according to the agreed statement-of-fact.
When the rape ended, the transient couple had sex in front of Robbie before they began the beating that would end his life.
The trio beat on Robbie, one holding him down as others hit him with stones and sticks, leaving him begging for his life, the court heard.
The 16-year-old boy stood on Robbie as the couple took turns kicking him in the face. Each time they shouted at Robbie to look at their shoe before they kicked him.
The court heard that Robbie offered his jacket if they would let him live. The court heard he even promised to lie, vowing to tell people his many injuries were from a car accident.
It didn't help.
'FINISH HIM OFF'
The court heard that as Robbie lay helpless on the ground, the girl said "finish him off."
The two other males threw heavy rocks at his head. When Robbie was found the next day, two rocks had his blood on them.
Throughout the beating, the court heard, cigarettes were extinguished on Robbie to see if he was still alive.
A pathologist couldn't determine whether it was the kicks to the head or the stoning that killed him.
But they concluded that the death was not instant and ensued over a matter of hours.
The transient couple involved are scheduled to face trial in 2005.
Friends said he was killed out of 'randomness'
$1:
STUDENT CALLED ANGRY, 'EXTREME'
Students at Northern told the Sun another story: That the teen has a "major anger management problem" and was allegedly involved in the attack with another Grade 11 student at the school. "He's a jerk. He'll take everything to the extreme," said one peer. Students gave the Sun the names of both alleged perpetrators.
Students at Northern told the Sun another story: That the teen has a "major anger management problem" and was allegedly involved in the attack with another Grade 11 student at the school. "He's a jerk. He'll take everything to the extreme," said one peer. Students gave the Sun the names of both alleged perpetrators.
A hideous tale of 2 sons
norad @ Sun Dec 19, 2004 6:40 am
$1:
My point is kids make bad choices, that’s part of growing up.
Deancoo, I did some shit when I was a teenager, meaning that yes, I went to court a few times, but never, and I mean NEVER did I ever consider doing this to another person. All three of these people are sick mother fuckers - plain and simple. And it is that simple, they are fucking SICK! I wish some people on this board would open their eyes because I think Scape is right - it is that black and white.
I knew what I was doing was wrong. The little 'bitch' yelling 'finish him off.' You're telling me she didn't know that was wrong? I don't know if I want to laugh at that or hang my head in shame knowing that people in this country think like that.
One of the posts mentioned politicians thinking that the young offenders act is a good thing. This is true for the most part, but let one of those assholes get theirs by a young offender - then lets see how fast the laws turn around!
Maybe I can speed up the process by giving these kids boxes of chocolate bars and asking them to storm parliament while in session - since they are mindless droles (sp?) as some here think.
:):):)
Deancoo @ Sun Dec 19, 2004 11:42 pm
Ok, this is getting a tad out of hand. Any suggestions I may have made, such as " kids make bad choices, that’s part of growing up.", were general and not directed toward this particular case. They were more to try to make some sense of the young offenders act. The details of this specific case can only slant the way you look at the more general issue of trying juveniles as adults. And although it may seem and feel justified in this case, will it not put us on that slippery slope that we don't want to be on? I hate the idea of Canada turning into another USA where incarceration is the solution to all of societies ills. “I’ll build more prisons” is not a campaign slogan I want to hear anytime soon. My point is we should be debating the real solution which is prevention.
I see this specific case as just about moot. The lives of these three are all but over. Whether you try them as adults or not, this behavior pattern is too extreme to recover from. What’s really at issue is how were these individuals created, and what can we do to prevent, or at least reduce the chances of, it happening again? And do we want to be a country of prisons?
Scape @ Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:25 am
That's just it. The Young offenders act works up to and including manslaughter. It breaks down at capitol crimes such as 2nd degree murder and it should be removed for such crimes completely.
Deancoo @ Mon Dec 20, 2004 12:32 am
Scape Scape:
That's just it. The Young offenders act works up to and including manslaughter. It breaks down at capitol crimes such as 2nd degree murder and it should be removed for such crimes completely.
Not that I necessarily disagree with you, but would a 14 year old boy who goes out to buy a gun to kill his step father that beats his mother and succeeds be considered a capitol crime?
Scape @ Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:24 am
That depends on if it was considered manslaughter or if the child had proven intent. IE: made plans, told his friends and designs on how and when. It must be proved in court that the 14 year old had the intent to kill his father and beat his mother. If it could be proven without reasonable doubt then yes this would be a capitol crime. If so the child should be removed from society as it has become a psychopath and is dangerous. The protection of society is more important than the well being of the child that would kill without any sense of moral wrong.
Now beyond that the child could not acquire a firearm without the negligence of an adult and that negligence can weight heavily on who ultimately is to blame as the child may have the basic idea of right and wrong he/she is still is not an adult with the same responsibilities and has not fully developed as a person.
Deancoo @ Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:33 am
Ok, my fault for poor sentence structure. The child's mother was beat by the step father. The child know's someone on the corner (anonymous) who'll sell him a gun. The child premetitively buys the gun with intent to shoot and kill his abusive father.
The point I was trying to make was, that this is clearly a capitol crime, but we can all see why you would want to deal with it outside of the adult court system. Right?
Scape @ Mon Dec 20, 2004 1:47 am
In that case it is still a crime and the child will still do time but as to what scale will depend on the judge presiding, he could opt to try it as manslaughter and under the young offerders act or as 2nd degree murder and under adult court.