Why so many leaders come from Quebec

The ultimate flattery for a comment is of course when a critic says it 'reads well' but is hogwash. It simply means they have no real criticism of it, but intend to stick with their line despite evidence to the contrary. That suits me fine. Notice that I didn't say that EVERY anti-war protest had double the number in Toronto. There is virtually a protest at Queeens Park every weekend, often even during the week. During the gay marriage legislation people were camped out there, and there were protests all over Ontario. This is political, even if you disagree with their point of view. Finally, just because people can form a co-op doesn't make the country socialist. You can even live on a commune if you want to, that doesn't make Canada communist, and many people go to mennonite churches, but that doesn't make the country mennonite.

PS If anybody ever doubts my numbers by all means feel free to take the two minutes to research them. I don't make stuff up, but sometimes my memory is shoddy, I typically recheck them when I post.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] Finally, just because people can form a co-op doesn't make the country socialist. You can even live on a commune if you want to, that doesn't make Canada communist, and many people go to mennonite churches, but that doesn't make the country mennonite. [/QUOTE] What's wrong with that? That way you can live communally without forcing people who don't want to give up their freedom to live communally.

I have no idea what the above is talking about. The paragraph mentioned pertained to the claim that Canada was socialist. It is not, and never has been. The canadian government has ALWAYS been a constitutional monarchy.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] I have no idea what the above is talking about. The paragraph mentioned pertained to the claim that Canada was socialist. It is not, and never has been. The canadian government has ALWAYS been a constitutional monarchy.[/QUOTE] The point being if you want to live in a different way--it is not necessary to change our form of government for you to do so. What you really seem to want is to change how EVERYONE lives, not just themselves.

What the heck are you talking about dude?

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] What the heck are you talking about dude?[/QUOTE] Marcarc stated that "we have always been a constitutional monarchy" no matter how people choose to live. I was trying to argue that there is nothing wrong with this. In other words, under our current system: 1 - you can live on a commune if you want to live communally, 2 - you can live as a mennonite if that is your wish, 3 - you can start a business if you want to be a capitalist, and so forth. I don't think a new form of government is required--whereas Marcarc wants direct democracy I believe. If someone wants a Communist government, that would force the majority to live as they do NOT want to live. Communist sympathizers can go live on a commune and not force everyone else to live with less freedom under a communist government.

Don't make Hulk angry! Thought I'd chime in, because I notice this thread made a turn a while back, and the blinker is still on. No need for hostilities. I didn't understand your response ethier Perturbed.

[QUOTE BY= Dr Caleb] Don't make Hulk angry! Thought I'd chime in, because I notice this thread made a turn a while back, and the blinker is still on. No need for hostilities. I didn't understand your response ethier Perturbed. [/QUOTE] Sorry, I edited my comment above. Hopefully it makes more sense.

Vive has become rather civilized lately and I must say I was missing the threat of Hulk striking. Call it nostalgia from my younger days. Yes Hulk was also part of a confused cultural heritage. BTW if you can see the Quebecois film C.R.A.Z.Y, you will see how mixed the culture was in spite of expectations that we might have been strictly immersed into Charlebois, Vignault, Harmonium and Beau Dommage. I also remember well listening to Genesis, King Crimson and Gentle Giant before these British groups ever became popular in the ROC. Go figure that out. Hope this was not too far off topic for Hulk.

This was the quote I was responding to: [QUOTE]I just wish the federal government were not trying to stuff their one-world socialist B.S..... [/QUOTE] So go back and reread my comment, I never even MENTIONED direct democracy, I simply stated a fact, that the federal government are NOT stuffing any socialism on anybody. If they were, then like I said that would mean the federal government would be trying to start worker co-ops all over the place-and the opposite is true. Workers have practically zero rights, even most unions have very few powers, and of course unions are not socialist either-they are trade unionism. So here it is: NO socialism. Canada: constitutional monarchy with a system of responsible government. If the federal government is 'stuffing' anything, it's corporate fascism. And even if I am in favour of direct democracy that has nothing to do with socialism. If people were allowed to vote on issues that doesn't mean they can vote to fire the Board of Directors at BCE-it's a private company. As for the other comments, under our current system you can live on a commune, but only a very specific type of commune. For example, you HAVE to buy land for it, and that means you have to pay property tax on it. To pay property tax you have to also have income from some source, to have income you have to get it from somewhere meaning you have to abide by all kinds of economic regulations. Even mennonites can't actually live as true mennonites, they have to be reformed mennonites. This is because they have to pay taxes on their land, which means paying into a government-which mennonites are not supposed to do. During the war there were huge issues because many mennonites advocated going to a neutral country or simply braving the consequences of refusing to pay taxes because of course the government was using their taxes to make weapons and kill people which mennonites absolutely oppose. So actually you CAN"T live on a commune or as a mennonite, but you can do what is true of most countries, which is live sort of according to your own wishes so long as it abides by the rules laid out by government-or skirts them and hopes they don't find out. I agree that our country is generally more free than most, but that has nothing to do with socialism or direct democracy. In fact, under direct democracy it WOULD be true, and not the fiction that you espouse. Simply because under direct democracy the people would be deciding for themselves what they wanted. If they wanted to construct a local economy based on co-op principles they'd be free to vote on it, and if they wanted to hand over industry to corporations to provide their services, they would vote on it. In this, as was true in the 19th century when these ideas were espoused, anarchy, democracy, and socialist principles were quite similar-they simply said that the people who are affected by decisions should be making those decisions.

[QUOTE BY= Marcarc] This was the quote I was responding to: [QUOTE]I just wish the federal government were not trying to stuff their one-world socialist B.S..... [/QUOTE] So go back and reread my comment, I never even MENTIONED direct democracy, I simply stated a fact, that the federal government are NOT stuffing any socialism on anybody. If they were, then like I said that would mean the federal government would be trying to start worker co-ops all over the place-and the opposite is true. Workers have practically zero rights, even most unions have very few powers, and of course unions are not socialist either-they are trade unionism. So here it is: NO socialism. Canada: constitutional monarchy with a system of responsible government. If the federal government is 'stuffing' anything, it's corporate fascism. And even if I am in favour of direct democracy that has nothing to do with socialism. If people were allowed to vote on issues that doesn't mean they can vote to fire the Board of Directors at BCE-it's a private company. As for the other comments, under our current system you can live on a commune, but only a very specific type of commune. For example, you HAVE to buy land for it, and that means you have to pay property tax on it. To pay property tax you have to also have income from some source, to have income you have to get it from somewhere meaning you have to abide by all kinds of economic regulations. Even mennonites can't actually live as true mennonites, they have to be reformed mennonites. This is because they have to pay taxes on their land, which means paying into a government-which mennonites are not supposed to do. During the war there were huge issues because many mennonites advocated going to a neutral country or simply braving the consequences of refusing to pay taxes because of course the government was using their taxes to make weapons and kill people which mennonites absolutely oppose. So actually you CAN"T live on a commune or as a mennonite, but you can do what is true of most countries, which is live sort of according to your own wishes so long as it abides by the rules laid out by government-or skirts them and hopes they don't find out. I agree that our country is generally more free than most, but that has nothing to do with socialism or direct democracy. In fact, under direct democracy it WOULD be true, and not the fiction that you espouse. Simply because under direct democracy the people would be deciding for themselves what they wanted. If they wanted to construct a local economy based on co-op principles they'd be free to vote on it, and if they wanted to hand over industry to corporations to provide their services, they would vote on it. In this, as was true in the 19th century when these ideas were espoused, anarchy, democracy, and socialist principles were quite similar-they simply said that the people who are affected by decisions should be making those decisions.[/QUOTE] Workers still have many more rights than they used to, and some unions, like school sevice employees unions and teacher unions manage to make people's life miserable at times--as do garbage collection workers in Toronto anyway. I think a bogger problem is not a lack of worker-rights, it is not enough jobs to ensure people become workers in the first place. I personally think it is unreasonable to expect more rigths than your employer, private or public, unless you are self-employed and emply other people, in which case you are the boss. I don't think there is anything wrong some authority.

I wasn't referring to unions but I will now. Standards of living have always gone up where there have been vibrant unions, that's pretty much a given, you can look at the statistics yourself. That workers have more powers now is a fiction, it isn't even remotely true (unless we're going back to the depression). For one thing Canada has been copying the US's anti-union culture for some time now. The eighties were literally a war on unions, while in canada it wasn't until the late eighties, early nineties. Most unions in canada are notoriously business friendly by world standards. In New Brunswick you just saw a union vote overwhelmingly to support a mill purchase which would sack their pensions, fire a quarter of workers and scale back wages. And just because one or two unions are very powerful, doesn't mean WORKERS are. In fact, the larger the union, the less power workers have, just like voters in our society. And what canada has been seeing, especially in the public sector, has been the amalgamation of unions. So for example, look at the post office: until the eighties there were two unions, one for carriers and one for administration, dispatch, and sorters. The letter carriers union was far more effective, there had only ever been one strike in their history and they were very good at settling issues by other means other than strikes. During the amalgamation vote 12,000 votes 'mysteriously' vanished and the union joined the larger, more strike prone administrative union. The larger union obviously wanted more union dues. The above posted argument by perturbed also omits a very important aspect of unionism, which is the government's legislattion which has increasingly dismantled tools of equal arbitration. This has meant that workers and unions have really had NO CHOICE but to strike, because every other recourse has been denied them. So garbage collectors 'make life miserable' because they have no other way to protect themselves from privatization and loss of income. This is a defense of 'trade unionism', and not a defense of specific unions. They run the gamut, and ask any union member and they will have as many complaints about their union as they will about the organization they work for. But it's similar to the states that have citizen's initiatives- many have complaints about how they are implemented and the rules governing them, but nobody within them will ever vote to get rid of them because they know the alternative is worse and they know that just their existence in part helps keep their company, or their government, more responsive.

[QUOTE BY= gaulois] Vive has become rather civilized lately and I must say I was missing the threat of Hulk striking. Hope this was not too far off topic for Hulk.[/QUOTE] Nope. Hulk is pleased with civility. The original topic of this thread took the offramp 10k back, and it's still going down the highway with it's left turn signal on. No problem. It appears as though people want to keep the flow of the discussion going, so Hulk will only poke his head in there if civility is lost, or I have anything to add to the discussion.