Volkswagen's small car a radical idea in fuel savings
BartSimpson @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 10:53 am
Just me, but when I hear any leftard preaching about the 'evils' of oil I always ask if they use any oil themselves? Of course they do.
Show me a leftard who uses no oil nor anything manufactured with energy from oil and that's the one I won't say STFU! to.
It is of note that when the IPCC met in Copenhagen a couple years back the local airports were jammed with private jets, the first class hotels were all booked, and every limousine in Northern Europe was on site to ferry those hypocrites around.
Where were the electric cars?
See, that's the thing is that these hypocrites want to impose their will on everyone else but for themselves they'll use more energy than anyone else does. Just like Algore with his mansion that has six air conditioners and a bunch of SUV's parked out front.
DrCaleb @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:15 am
andyt andyt:
And our editorial policy is to use oil sands?
No, it's to unleash our trained flying ninja monkeys at the Tyee.
DrCaleb @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:18 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
See, that's the thing is that these hypocrites want to impose their will on everyone else but for themselves they'll use more energy than anyone else does. Just like Algore with his mansion that has six air conditioners and a bunch of SUV's parked out front.
Wish I could have got a picture (but I was driving) of a car I saw the other day. The whole back end was greenpeace bumperstickers and the usual "Darwin" fish being eaten by a "Truth" fish, and someone put a big sticker across them all "These are meaningless when stuck to a CAR".
Gunnair @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:24 am
andyt andyt:
Paulozzo Paulozzo:
74Ah battery for my diesel car costs around $100 (give or take) and a new rotary pump or turbocharger costs a fortune.
I dunno about the batteries for EV but I am sure that if the tar sands start running dry, the market with deal with it.
I dunno about the batteries for EV but I am sure that if the tar sands start running dry, the market with deal with it.
Yep, they'll convert cars to natural gas, which they should have already done.
Or hydrogen. Rumour has it that that is not too hard to find.
andyt @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:36 am
herbie herbie:
Bin Dare dundat.
There were a lot of natural gas vehicles in BC in the 80s. No one seems to remember that there isn'tas much energy in natural gas, and the range sucked.*
EVs already meet that range.
What we'll run into is the same preconception the Smart Car ran into. Wah... Americans won't like engines that little so they shittified them with bigger engines that got crappy mileage as soon as they entered the US market and removed the choice for Canadians.
An LNG fuel cell/EV is what makes the most sense. The fuel supply is already here and abundant, unlike Hydrogen fuel cells.
* but keep in mind most conversions were the old full size vans with 350 cu in V8s. New smaller engines would extend that, but with vehicles being smaller now the tanks would most likely be smaller too.
There were a lot of natural gas vehicles in BC in the 80s. No one seems to remember that there isn'tas much energy in natural gas, and the range sucked.*
EVs already meet that range.
What we'll run into is the same preconception the Smart Car ran into. Wah... Americans won't like engines that little so they shittified them with bigger engines that got crappy mileage as soon as they entered the US market and removed the choice for Canadians.
An LNG fuel cell/EV is what makes the most sense. The fuel supply is already here and abundant, unlike Hydrogen fuel cells.
* but keep in mind most conversions were the old full size vans with 350 cu in V8s. New smaller engines would extend that, but with vehicles being smaller now the tanks would most likely be smaller too.
I think modern turbocharged, fuel injected engines work well with CNG. The octane rating seems to be 130. If engines were specifically designed for CNG, they would probably be quite efficient and powerful. The biggest problem is how and where to store the fuel onboard.
BartSimpson @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:43 am
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
See, that's the thing is that these hypocrites want to impose their will on everyone else but for themselves they'll use more energy than anyone else does. Just like Algore with his mansion that has six air conditioners and a bunch of SUV's parked out front.
Wish I could have got a picture (but I was driving) of a car I saw the other day. The whole back end was greenpeace bumperstickers and the usual "Darwin" fish being eaten by a "Truth" fish, and someone put a big sticker across them all "These are meaningless when stuck to a CAR".
I wish I knew who did that as I'd love to buy them a beer!
![[BB]](./images/smilies/beers.gif "Beers")
andyt @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:46 am
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Just me, but when I hear any leftard preaching about the 'evils' of oil I always ask if they use any oil themselves? Of course they do.
Show me a leftard who uses no oil nor anything manufactured with energy from oil and that's the one I won't say STFU! to.
It is of note that when the IPCC met in Copenhagen a couple years back the local airports were jammed with private jets, the first class hotels were all booked, and every limousine in Northern Europe was on site to ferry those hypocrites around.
Where were the electric cars?
See, that's the thing is that these hypocrites want to impose their will on everyone else but for themselves they'll use more energy than anyone else does. Just like Algore with his mansion that has six air conditioners and a bunch of SUV's parked out front.
Show me a leftard who uses no oil nor anything manufactured with energy from oil and that's the one I won't say STFU! to.
It is of note that when the IPCC met in Copenhagen a couple years back the local airports were jammed with private jets, the first class hotels were all booked, and every limousine in Northern Europe was on site to ferry those hypocrites around.
Where were the electric cars?
See, that's the thing is that these hypocrites want to impose their will on everyone else but for themselves they'll use more energy than anyone else does. Just like Algore with his mansion that has six air conditioners and a bunch of SUV's parked out front.
So only gas hogs get a voice in this discussion? How convenient. Same with taxation questions - only the rich who are for less taxes are apparently not hypocrites.
I'm surprised to see Dr Caleb fall in with you here, I thought he was smarter than that.
DrCaleb @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:49 am
Obvious troll is Obvious.
Paulozzo @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:49 am
First of all, BartSimpson those parts and their price aren't an issue for me. I am just saying that they cost fortune when compared to the overall price of the given vehicle (well mainly the pump and turbocharger, I don't know why I also mentioned the battery)
Second of all, I am not saying that "tar sand running dry" (I'm sorry, I mean "oil sands" because I too don't believe that kind of oil is somewhat "dirtier" than others) means that there will be no more oil to burn. It means that the demand for oil is rising everyday and we are only burning it, not creating. So let's take a little Economy 101 - what happens if demand goes up but supply isn't able to keep up? Then the PRICE will rise and oil will become a very expensive commodity. And burning it during your everyday commute to work? Forget about it. And I really do worry that this will come in the next 10 or 20 years (and I REALLY don't want it to come, because I too like to burn it and drive my ass around)
Third of all, I can't really remember the 80's, at least the auto-motive part of it, but I currently reside in Austria and NG (or LPG/CNG) is a big hit here.
It has only two drawbacks: NG has bigger octane rating (around 110) so your car needs a knock sensor and it should be able to adjust the spark timing correspondingly.
And the second drawback is that the gas tank is either located in your trunk or in the place where your spare tire should go. Therefore you have less space in your trunk or you don't have a spare tire (or your spare tire is IN your trunk which leads us back to lesser space in a trunk)
And the positive aspects of having your car converted to LPG/CNG/NG or whatever? Your costs are reduced almost a half (gas here costs around 50% of the petrol price, but you need to start on petrol and drive like 3kilometres on petrol before the gas kicks in) and you have better range(!!!). Yes, you have - because this way you can have two tanks - one full of petrol and one full of gas.
And apparently the emissions are also lower, at least the people who sell these devices say that.
andyt @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:57 am
LPG/CNG has a higher octane rating, so is less likely to knock than gasoline. Most modern engines have knock sensors. I doubt the Austrian ones are engines specifically designed for CNG, so they aren't getting the most out of them. An engine designed for CNG could use significantly higher compression than a gasoline engine, which increases power/decreases fuel consumption. In that case it would need a knock sensor.
CNG costs less than gas, in part because the govt doesn't put road taxes on it - otherwise some of those savings will be lost. LPG is manufactured from oil, so it's not an alternative to oil.
Both gases burn much cleaner than gasoline. But modern engines are very clean anyway, so maybe the benefit here would be that CNG engines wouldn't need as many pollution control systems on the engine.
Brenda @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 11:59 am
You also pay more road tax on LPG. Just as when you drive on Diesel. Not in Canada, because we don't pay road tax here, but you are in Europe. Did I mention I am Dutch?
DrCaleb @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:00 pm
Paulozzo Paulozzo:
Third of all, I can't really remember the 80's, at least the auto-motive part of it, but I currently reside in Austria and NG (or LPG/CNG) is a big hit here.
It has only two drawbacks: NG has bigger octane rating (around 110) so your car needs a knock sensor and it should be able to adjust the spark timing correspondingly.
And the second drawback is that the gas tank is either located in your trunk or in the place where your spare tire should go. Therefore you have less space in your trunk or you don't have a spare tire (or your spare tire is IN your trunk which leads us back to lesser space in a trunk)
It has only two drawbacks: NG has bigger octane rating (around 110) so your car needs a knock sensor and it should be able to adjust the spark timing correspondingly.
And the second drawback is that the gas tank is either located in your trunk or in the place where your spare tire should go. Therefore you have less space in your trunk or you don't have a spare tire (or your spare tire is IN your trunk which leads us back to lesser space in a trunk)
I do recall the push to switch cars and trucks (mostly trucks, because as you point out, the space issue) over to LNG or LPG, and the result was less than spectacular. As you say, you need a knock sensor, but very few vehicles in the 80's had fuel injection. Most of the conversions were carburated, and needed expensive heads to be able to burn the higher octane fuel without pre-detonation (ie: the fuel explodes before there is a spark, just be compression alone).
That also meant that if they burnt 110 octane LNG, then they couldn't start on 87 octane regular fuel and in the winter that meant frozen fuel lines.
Nowadays, you see City owned vehicles running LNG or Hydrogen, and almost no place to fuel such a vehicle for the private sector.
Brenda @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:01 pm
LPG is big in Europe and available at every gasstation, but not necessarily in NA.
andyt @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:02 pm
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I do recall the push to switch cars and trucks (mostly trucks, because as you point out, the space issue) over to LNG or LPG, and the result was less than spectacular. As you say, you need a knock sensor, but very few vehicles in the 80's had fuel injection. Most of the conversions were carburated, and needed expensive heads to be able to burn the higher octane fuel without pre-detonation (ie: the fuel explodes before there is a spark, just be compression alone).
That also meant that if they burnt 110 octane LNG, then they couldn't start on 87 octane regular fuel and in the winter that meant frozen fuel lines.
Nowadays, you see City owned vehicles running LNG or Hydrogen, and almost no place to fuel such a vehicle for the private sector.
Higher octane fuel is less likely to pre-detonate. That is why high compression gasoline engines require higher octane fuel.
You must be talking about converting diesel to CNG. I'm not sure why anybody would do that, but apparently they do.
DrCaleb @ Tue Jun 19, 2012 12:23 pm
andyt andyt:
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I do recall the push to switch cars and trucks (mostly trucks, because as you point out, the space issue) over to LNG or LPG, and the result was less than spectacular. As you say, you need a knock sensor, but very few vehicles in the 80's had fuel injection. Most of the conversions were carburated, and needed expensive heads to be able to burn the higher octane fuel without pre-detonation (ie: the fuel explodes before there is a spark, just be compression alone).
That also meant that if they burnt 110 octane LNG, then they couldn't start on 87 octane regular fuel and in the winter that meant frozen fuel lines.
Nowadays, you see City owned vehicles running LNG or Hydrogen, and almost no place to fuel such a vehicle for the private sector.
Higher octane fuel is less likely to pre-detonate. That is why high compression gasoline engines require higher octane fuel.
You must be talking about converting diesel to CNG. I'm not sure why anybody would do that, but apparently they do.
You are correct, I worded that incorrectly. They couldn't burn 110 octane LNG on their 8:1 ratio engines, and needed 10:1 or better heads to run properly which ran the risk of detonation with the 87 octane gas they needed to get going.