3 RCMP officers dead, 2 wounded in Moncton shooting
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andyt @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:42 am
Breivik was deemed sane, in the sense of knowing right from wrong, hence the prison sentence.
Zipperfish @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 8:58 am
Xort Xort:
Gunnair Gunnair:
2Cdo 2Cdo:
I'm still surprised he surrendered. I think Gunny nailed it, this fucking nutbar will make any trial a complete fiasco with some incoherent ramblings.
Another Anders Breivik. He'll have a lot to say unfortunately.
What Breivik said was anything but incoherent.
It's useless and dangerous to dismiss people that seek to hurt others as just being crazy. A bit more effort should be spend on understanding their motivations and reasoning so as to better model the behavior.
Saying they are crazy is equal to saying it was god's will that the building fell down.
I can understand the emotional motivation to class those people as being insane, and by inference unlike me or the people I know and like. But the reality is that most often these are sane people that have just reached a different conclusion and decided to take different actions.
This guy could be totally criminally insane and unable to tell right from wrong or understand why his actions are unacceptable. But the simple act of running away and hiding gives good evidence that he was still able to make the logical connection between killing people and negative results for himself if caught.
It's in the public's interest to not brush away the actions of violent people as being crazy without a much deeper look at them.
I actually agree with this, except for the part about "understanding the motivations." In a recent Filibuster cartoon, JJ quoted this statement on Facebook:
$1:
100% of gun massacres occur by people with mental illness. If you disagree with that statement, be prepared to make the case that there are some rational, cool-headed people who, after thinking clearly and weighing the pros and cons, decide to commit mass-killings. There aren’t.
I accept that myself. It might be widely called "mental illness" but I would say "genetically wired wrong for environmental circumstances."
I'm not particularly interested in motivations because they will be the same motivations that a whole bunch of non-homicidal people will have. The difference with the killers is the wiring, not the cause.
And I agree with what Bart implies: I don't think there is any treatment for their condition. They are genetic contaminants that need to be put in a box or crushed. I find their motivations boring, frankly.
andyt @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 9:06 am
You have no idea if it's genetics that's behind this. Not everything reduces to genetics except in the broadest sense. The particular combination of nature and nurture they bring to the situation is what made them do it. And nurture can be any environmental factors. Even "wiring" is as much or more due to environment than genetics. The guy in this OP apparently changed after a police shooting in Moncton, started spouting his rants (which sound a lot like Bart's incidentally).
housewife @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:03 am
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
housewife housewife:
andyt really you have no imagination... cleaning supplies are chemicals and you can make all sorts of things with them.
I can do some very interesting things with what's available over the counter in a Pharmacy and in Grocery stores, and the plumbing and painting aisles in a hardware store. Most people who have taken high school chemistry can.
I used to take the 'Hazardous Chemical Guide' that the government publishes to tell retailers and industry which chemicals can and cannot be stored together, and treat it like a recipe book.
You can easily make very shock sensitive compounds from a welding supply store and hobbyist photography store.Thank you DrCaleb. I had been thinking along that line as well as the natural gas line that comes right to my house. Though I'm wondering what trouble I can get into with pots and pans
But not my good pots and pans. I may have to raid the shed for the camp set they are crap but if I remember right have a good weight to them...
Jabberwalker @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:07 am
“It is clear that Canada's excessive firearms control system has failed again,” the NFA statement said.
The gun group says money spent on gun control would be better used in the health care system.
http://news.ca.msn.com/canada/moncton-s ... dly-attack
Zipperfish @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:21 am
andyt andyt:
You have no idea if it's genetics that's behind this. Not everything reduces to genetics except in the broadest sense. The particular combination of nature and nurture they bring to the situation is what made them do it. And nurture can be any environmental factors. Even "wiring" is as much or more due to environment than genetics. The guy in this OP apparently changed after a police shooting in Moncton, started spouting his rants (which sound a lot like Bart's incidentally).
And you have no idea either. So what's the point of talking about it?
There, wasn't that fun!
But you're correct--the term genetics wasn't completely accurate. It would have been more accurate to say that the bad chemicals in his brain dictated his course of action. Whether those those chemcials came about due to genetic or environmental factors--you're right, who knows? There is certainly some genetic factors--for instance these spree killers are almost always male. What I do know is that the motivations stated by these guys are not particularly useful in understanding.
Regina @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 10:35 am
Nature vs. Nurture is a battle science will never be able to accurately answer.
BartSimpson @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:30 am
andyt andyt:
The guy in this OP apparently changed after a police shooting in Moncton, started spouting his rants (which sound a lot like Bart's incidentally).
Even Kim Jong-Il thinks you deserve this:
CanadianJeff @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:40 am
So sad. I hope the community and these officers families my deepest condolences.
That having been done I look to both the American and Canadian media and ask but one thing. Keep this nutjob and his message off your front pages. Focus on the victims don't give the killer a voice. He doesn't deserve it.
2Cdo @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:42 am
CanadianJeff CanadianJeff:
So sad. I hope the community and these officers families my deepest condolences.
That having been done I look to both the American and Canadian media and ask but one thing. Keep this nutjob and his message off your front pages. Focus on the victims don't give the killer a voice. He doesn't deserve it.
That having been done I look to both the American and Canadian media and ask but one thing. Keep this nutjob and his message off your front pages. Focus on the victims don't give the killer a voice. He doesn't deserve it.
Noble idea but unfortunately I don't have any faith in the media to honour such a request.
ShepherdsDog @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 11:43 am
Wrong Nork dwarf.....That's Kim Jong Num Num
BartSimpson @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 12:05 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Wrong Nork dwarf.....That's Kim Jong Num Num
Which one was Kim Jong-Elvis?
andyt @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:24 pm
$1:
As the anthropologist Elliott Leyton, professor emeritus at Newfoundland’s Memorial University and a man who has studied murder much of his professional life, said in an email Thursday, there has been a “slight but real increase in these mass, or the now preferred term ‘rampage,’ killers,” a very gradual increase that has been going on through 21st and 20th centuries.
But the enormous hike is in the media coverage, he said, “thus making citizens infinitely more aware of these killings, and thus feeling surrounded by such violence.”
The availability of modern military weapons, with their tremendous firepower, doesn’t help, Mr. Leyton said.
But the really important factor, he said, is the dehumanizing nature of so many aspects of modern societies, and the diminishment and outright betrayal of the values and beliefs that used to be ours and used to matter — greasy politicians with their hands in the till, bureaucrats who erase evidence of their masters’ capers, CEOs with scandalous salaries, doctors who grope patients on the operating table, lawyers who steal, crazed conspiracy theorists, slick political operatives who misdirect voters to the wrong polls, angry trolls on the web, the list goes on.
As the novelist John Le Carre wrote in A Delicate Truth, his incredible story at the intersection of the modern state and the private defence contractor, of a particularly loathsome and treacherous character, “Jay Crispin was your normal, rootless, amoral, plausible, half-educated, nicely spoken frozen adolescent in a bespoke suit, with an unappeasable craving for money, power and respect, regardless where he got them from.”
If the police ever put out a description like that, half the country’s governing elite, and a good many people we all know, would be under arrest.
To all this I would add fractured families.
The one sure lesson the criminal courts teaches is the dreadful, tragic, past-redemption state of the family, how many children don’t know their fathers, how many careless parents there are and how many cruel ones, how so many kids raise themselves essentially and have no eyes watching over them. No wonder the best of them, the high achievers, grow up to be Jay Crispins.
Mr. Legebokoff is said to come from a good family; Mr. Bourque’s parents have been described as deeply religious people who homeschooled him (something that always sets off alarm bells in my head, but then I’m deeply skeptical about religiousity). Truth is, we’ll probably never know what actually made either one of them.
I haven’t read Elliott Leyton’s Hunting Humans: The Rise of the Modern Multiple Murderer in a while, but it’s stayed fresh.
These mass killers, he wrote, are often aspirational — in that they tend to target those in a bracket or two above them, whether economic or social. They kill what they can’t or don’t have or become. They feel entitled, somehow.
And in my head I replay what I last heard in that Prince George courtroom, Mr. Legebokoff’s — and yes, he’s an alleged serial killer of women, not an alleged rampage killer — peremptory, furious voice, demanding of the RCMP this and that, a smoke, a call to his dad, his cell phone. He’d just been arrested for the murder of a teenage girl, but damn it, he wanted his damn phone. Now. He wanted it, you see.
But the enormous hike is in the media coverage, he said, “thus making citizens infinitely more aware of these killings, and thus feeling surrounded by such violence.”
The availability of modern military weapons, with their tremendous firepower, doesn’t help, Mr. Leyton said.
But the really important factor, he said, is the dehumanizing nature of so many aspects of modern societies, and the diminishment and outright betrayal of the values and beliefs that used to be ours and used to matter — greasy politicians with their hands in the till, bureaucrats who erase evidence of their masters’ capers, CEOs with scandalous salaries, doctors who grope patients on the operating table, lawyers who steal, crazed conspiracy theorists, slick political operatives who misdirect voters to the wrong polls, angry trolls on the web, the list goes on.
As the novelist John Le Carre wrote in A Delicate Truth, his incredible story at the intersection of the modern state and the private defence contractor, of a particularly loathsome and treacherous character, “Jay Crispin was your normal, rootless, amoral, plausible, half-educated, nicely spoken frozen adolescent in a bespoke suit, with an unappeasable craving for money, power and respect, regardless where he got them from.”
If the police ever put out a description like that, half the country’s governing elite, and a good many people we all know, would be under arrest.
To all this I would add fractured families.
The one sure lesson the criminal courts teaches is the dreadful, tragic, past-redemption state of the family, how many children don’t know their fathers, how many careless parents there are and how many cruel ones, how so many kids raise themselves essentially and have no eyes watching over them. No wonder the best of them, the high achievers, grow up to be Jay Crispins.
Mr. Legebokoff is said to come from a good family; Mr. Bourque’s parents have been described as deeply religious people who homeschooled him (something that always sets off alarm bells in my head, but then I’m deeply skeptical about religiousity). Truth is, we’ll probably never know what actually made either one of them.
I haven’t read Elliott Leyton’s Hunting Humans: The Rise of the Modern Multiple Murderer in a while, but it’s stayed fresh.
These mass killers, he wrote, are often aspirational — in that they tend to target those in a bracket or two above them, whether economic or social. They kill what they can’t or don’t have or become. They feel entitled, somehow.
And in my head I replay what I last heard in that Prince George courtroom, Mr. Legebokoff’s — and yes, he’s an alleged serial killer of women, not an alleged rampage killer — peremptory, furious voice, demanding of the RCMP this and that, a smoke, a call to his dad, his cell phone. He’d just been arrested for the murder of a teenage girl, but damn it, he wanted his damn phone. Now. He wanted it, you see.
http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/201 ... attention/
Xort @ Fri Jun 06, 2014 5:39 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
$1:
100% of gun massacres occur by people with mental illness. If you disagree with that statement, be prepared to make the case that there are some rational, cool-headed people who, after thinking clearly and weighing the pros and cons, decide to commit mass-killings. There aren’t.
Well I don't agree. To say that because they conduct mass killings they much be crazy, is poor logic. Some of them are insane. Some of them even have mental illnesses that would place them into the category of not being criminal responsible for their actions. But overall most of the mass killers that are captured rather than killed are not crazy. They are not serial killers that just decided to get all their killing done in one day. They are not delusional, they are not unable to control their emotions.
So yeah, JJ is wrong their are people that have coldly weighted the pros and cons and decide to try and hurt and kill as many people as possible. I would like to live in a world in which only mentally ill people hurt others, but that's just not matching with the facts of the world we do live in. JJ is in denial.
$1:
I'm not particularly interested in motivations because they will be the same motivations that a whole bunch of non-homicidal people will have. The difference with the killers is the wiring, not the cause.
I can't see any reasonable argument that can be made that knowing less about why someone committed this type of crime is a bad thing.BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Even Kim Jong-Il thinks you deserve this:
That's Kim Jong-un, Kim Jong-il's son.
Strutz @ Sat Jun 07, 2014 9:55 pm
Unsound Unsound:
I'm torn. Certainly he deserves death. And "shot while resisting" would have been quicker and cleaner in a lot of ways. But this makes the RCMP look good. And after what they've been through this week, maybe they need that for themselves.
Agreed.
I'm sure the officers involved with the arrest had to restrain themselves to a certain extent as to not do any harm to him, though the urge to do so must have been great considering this jerk took 3 of their comrade's lives for no reason.
At least he's alive to face the consequences, unlike the cowards that off themselves to avoid it. Damn, but I hope he's deemed fit to stand trial.
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