China warns Obama about meeting with Dalai Lama
andyt @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 10:19 am
CommanderSock CommanderSock:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
I think that the supposed imminent move of China to superpower status has been overstated by the media and the Chinese.
It's still a third world country with a few shiny cities and a lot of cash. Lick a McDonalds Happy Meal toy anyone? I thought not....
It's still a third world country with a few shiny cities and a lot of cash. Lick a McDonalds Happy Meal toy anyone? I thought not....
Being 3rd world doesn't stop a nation from dominating. Historically there are good examples of states that have been poor at home and strong abroad.
The Roman Republic was plagued by poverty and social unrest yet they managed to create one of the most dominant empires of human history.
Russia is a more recent example, even at the height of its power Russia was never a first world country. When the Germans invaded they were shocked to find no paved roads connecting its major cities. In the 1990s its newly opened borders exposed a third world country with a first world military.
I wouldn't be surprised if China comes to dominate abroad, even as vast numbers of its people still live in shambolic conditions. But that will still take a few decades.
Good point.
EyeBrock @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:18 pm
Sock does have a point but....
China is vulnerable as pretender to super-power status because of it's Third World infrastructure and governance.
The 'Party' isn't as all powerful and omni-present as some believe and the further away from Bejing you are, the less it's influence is felt.
The PRC can only censor the outside world for so long. Internal unrest is their biggest threat.
andyt @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:28 pm
I don't think it's about military might anyway. Tho it doesn't hurt to have a kick ass army of course. But we've seen the limits to American military power, and with their debt load they're going to have trouble maintaining that expensive toy.
But good point about China's governance. Things there could still get fery interestink. But that could also result in the CCP stirring up nationalist sentiments even more. Hitler sure caused a lot of trouble that way.
BartSimpson @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:43 pm
andyt andyt:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
The Dalai Lamas of Tibet are often called God-Kings, by their followers, because unlike most Buddhists, they believe in gods and the reincarnation of the soul. The Dalai Lamas consider themselves reincarnations of the Tibetan god of compassion, which is a holdover from the old religion of the Tibetan people before thy converted to Buddhism.
Read a little before you take on a condescending tone.
Nope. Tibetan Vajrayana believes in rebirth same as any other Buddhist sect. http://buddhism.about.com/od/karmaandrebirth/a/reincarnation.htm No soul involved. No Buddhist believes in a creator God. Tibetan Buddhism has incorporated many of the animist beliefs of the original Bon religion. The Dalai Lama is seen as the re-incarnation of Avalokiteshvara, the bhodisattva of compassion, not God. Avalokiteshvara is found in all Mahayana sects, including Zen. Tibetan Buddhism has many deities besides Buddhas, but none are seen as a supreme God, and are more understood at natural forces.
In Buddhism there are 6 realms, human and animal are the two we know. But there are also two God realms, ie beings living a God-like existence. (Also two lower realms, including hell). But even in the God realm, beings eventually grow old and die. The human realm is seen as the ideal realm to be born into, because it equally balances suffering and joy. So we can find enough peace to walk the path, but have enough suffering to prod us to seek liberation, ie getting off the wheel of rebirth.
Many lay people in countries where Buddhism is a traditional religion do relate to the various Buddhas as Gods - supplicating them for good fortune, etc. But that's not the "official dogma."
The sect that has the most in common with Monotheism is Pure Land.
$1:
One basic Mahayana Pure Land concept is that Nirvana (liberation, awakening, salvation) has become increasingly difficult to attain, and that only through devotion to Amitābha Buddha and looking towards Amida Buddha for guidance can one be reborn in the Pure Land, a perfect realm in which enlightenment is guaranteed. The Pure Land Path has been popular among both commoners and elite monastics as it provided a straightforward way of attaining salvation. In medieval Japan it was especially popular among those on the outskirts of society, such as prostitutes and social outcasts who, though often denied salvation by the mainstream traditions, were able to find solace in the newly formed Pure Land sect.
I forget, tho, what this has to do with Obama meeting the Dalai LLama {sic}.
We're talking about two leaders whose devoted followers think they are gods.
andyt @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 12:50 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
We're talking about two leaders whose devoted followers think they are gods.
Nice dig. But, I've spent a lot of time with Tibetan Buddhists in the US and Canada - none of them thought the Dalai Lama, nor their own particular guru, was God or a God. I haven't really heard that from Obama followers either. I guess the Republicons are just jealous 'cause God doesn't seem be on their side as much as they thought.
bootlegga @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:11 pm
Tman1 Tman1:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
I think that the supposed imminent move of China to superpower status has been overstated by the media and the Chinese.
It's still a third world country with a few shiny cities and a lot of cash. Lick a McDonalds Happy Meal toy anyone? I thought not....
It's still a third world country with a few shiny cities and a lot of cash. Lick a McDonalds Happy Meal toy anyone? I thought not....
China is a superpower whether you like it or not. Whoever has the gold makes the rules remember. China has a lot of gold and a lot of nukes. I don't know what your definition of a 'third world' country is but the second most GDP in the world makes it a superpower. I don't know many third world countries with that amount of dough.
Superpower? Hardly.
Militarily, China is a paper tiger. It has a couple dozen ICBMs, which barely have the range to hit North America (but oddly enough - plenty to hit most of Russia). To top it off, they are liquid fueled, which means they need hours of time to get ready to launch, giving adversaries plenty of warning time. Their air force has only a few hundred modern aircraft (less than 20 years old) and they've only just acquired aerial tanker planes and AWACS planes. The PLA Navy is small and has little to no blue water capabilities, and many of their ‘high tech’ weapons (like the Silkworm missile) are based on decades old technology – the Silkworm was used in the first Gulf War by Iraq and it couldn’t even scratch the paint on a Coalition ship, nevermind sink it. The Army was shocked by how easily the US and Coalition forces routed Iraqi forces in both Gulf Wars and is trying to modernize, but the funds just aren’t there. Despite recent increases in defence spending, it still spends far less than the US (between 1/3 and ½ depending on whose numbers you believe).
Economically, it has a lot of strengths, but like Eyebrock says, it has a few nice shiny cities and the rest of the country is desperately poor. While some people here have brought up examples like Rome, it just doesn’t fit. The Chinese leadership vividly remembers how it came to power (on the backs of the poor and peasants), and it is seeking to prevent that from happening again by trying to spur growth and industry in provinces far from where all the action currently is like Xinjiang and other parts of western China. But because of the terrible shape of the countryside, massive investments in infrastructure, power generation, etc are needed, and that’s where China is sinking all the foreign investment it is getting.
The government fears the 100 – 300 million migrant workers far more than it fears a US attack.
No China is a major power (like France or Japan or the UK), but it is far from a superpower.
romanP @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 4:59 pm
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
romanP romanP:
EyeBrock EyeBrock:
Wow, that must be good weed roman!
Are you aware that the Dalai Lama is a Buddhist?
Nah, really?
Who would have thought, him wearing the same gear as all the other Buddhist monks in the world. There's me thinking he was the Irish Catholic, Declan O'Lama.
Okay. So, uh.. do you know anything about Buddhism?
romanP @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:08 pm
andyt andyt:
I forget, tho, what this has to do with Obama meeting the Dalai LLama {sic}.
One of the fourty-eight secondary transgressions of the Bodhisattva Vow is that of not accepting an invitation. An exception is made if accepting the invitation would cause afflictive emotions among other parties.
I don't know if the Dalai Lama has taken the Bodhisattva Vow, but we should treat him and all other people with the same respect as if they were Bodhisattvas.
romanP @ Thu Feb 04, 2010 5:12 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
We're talking about two leaders whose devoted followers think they are gods.
The Dalai Lama is not a god. He is only human, like any other. If you asked him for advice, he would tell you not to have absolute faith in his advice, and to think for yourself about what is the right thing to do.