Previous  1  2

Given the debacle that the US has turned Iraq into, I'd say George Sr was a pretty smart cookie. But that's another kettle of fish.

You think the problem is the forces "playing politics" yet this is exactly what you are doing. If Dion says that maybe Pakistan is a problem--admittedly in a ham-fisted manner--you jump all over him, even though he's right. Then you say that "the left" would have a problem if Canada/NATO had have invaded Pakistan--I'd say the more important aspect of the issue, militarily, is the uproar by the Pakistani forces and insurgents hiding in northern Pakistan, seeing as they'd be the ones shooting at us. It seems you view the war more through the prism of domestic politics than through the military reality. Just an observation.

Fact is, the US left us high and dry when Bonehead Bush marched off to Baghdad. Musharaff doesn't give a rat's ass about what's happening in Afghanistan, except insofar as he thinks it can keep his sorry ass in power another day. The Taliban were never much of an organized bunch to start with and Canada is left chasing around a bunch of loosely affiliated goatfuckers.

I'd say put Musharaff's balls to the fire. Make it clear that he's replaceable--especially now that he's weak. And for Christ's sake, if we're serious about winning this war, then it should be the number one priority in this country (and a lot of other countries) and there should way, way more soldiers and builders there. I'm getting sick of half-assing this war.

Not that I know anything about military matters, but that's my 2 cents worth.

   

Dion can't even make up his mind thats why he is back tracking from his initial comments
http://www.cbc.ca/canada/story/2008/01/ ... istan.html. thats bad politics being played in the wrong places.

You are right, we should make it a priority to finish this fight. I can just imagine the opposition screaming if Harper made it a priority..."war monger"..".Bush lover"..etc.


Come to think of it the opposition does that already!

   

Pakistan IS a problem, but they are also our allies and have been very clear and very vocal that they do NOT want western troops helping out. Everone here has heard that, except Dion, and that makes his blunder even larger.

I believe that Dion made a huge mistake when he mistook his speech for Canada with his speech for the world. Maybe he believed that the Pakistani don't speak french.

   

Regardless, Dion as proved himself not only spineless but fucking stupid. Making the whole lot of us look like a bunch of idiots. The sooner the liberals ditch him, the better. Bring on Iggy.

   

Fuck ya, with a bullet! That Karzi clown can get the same memo.

   

they are more than a problem in the middle east.. they are a problem world wide.. while the worlds eyes were on Iraq and now on Iran. they have been working their magic... they cant be trusted and they have proved it.. so if we have to bomb them then so be it...

   

Hmmm. This makes me uncomfortable. I have advocated, all along, the position that we need to go in "big, get out quick". I didn't put it that concisely before, someone here summarized it quite well (thank you) so I'll continue to use those words. My idea was go in with everything we have to take out al-Qaeda quickly, then get the hell out of Afghanistan. Don't target the Taliban, just ignore them. Again, the Taliban are far from saints but they didn't attack us or our allies so leave them alone. Although I want to focus on al-Qaeda alone, Mr. Dion wants to neutralize the Taliban as well, emphasizing the need to close the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan.

The reason I mention that is the fact I did get to talk to Stéphane Dion once, the evening before the first leadership debate in June 2006. That was a 2 hour talk with myself and 3 other delegates who hadn't yet decided who to support. I'm afraid I dominated the conversation for half of that time, and most of my talk was about Afghanistan. One point I made was the fact al-Qaeda is hiding in Pakistan. I said Canada is an international boy scout who is friends with everyone. We can be diplomatic, our friendliness and assistance without demanding we control or dictate other countries gets more cooperation than nations like the United States. Because of that we should be able to talk to the government of Pakistan, have a joint force of Pakistan army and Canadian military go into the tribal areas of Pakistan and root-out al-Qaeda. Do it quickly; once al-Qaeda is gone out of Pakistan get the hell out of their country. This has to be done diplomatically and starts by talking to the president of Pakistan, not off-hand comments to the media.

I'm afraid I may have been the one who put the idea of going into Pakistan into Mr. Dion's head. Unfortunately this was something that had be handled very delicately, starting with diplomatic talks to president Musharraf. Mr. Dion unfortunately let the cat out of the bag, and the Stephen Harper has put spin on this to make it sound as if Mr. Dion is advocating a NATO invasion of Pakistan. No one wants that, Pakistan is our friend.

It's really frustrating being the opposition; so many opportunities to fix problems come and go while the current government screws around. How many Canadian soldiers will be killed by the occupation of Afghanistan while both al-Qaeda and Taliban soldiers freely cross back-and-forth between Afghanistan and Pakistan?

   

So.. let me see if I got this straight. All you Cons say Saddam and the Taliban are the bad guys, right? Yet, Pakistan are the good guys? Could it be becaus they have nuclear weapons perhaps? I'dd just like to see a well stated argument on how Pakistan is helping you win the war against the bad guys and all their "ilk" and how much better everything is in Pakistan compared to Iraq and Afghanistan.

   

I just had to archive that one for future reference..

There was no way that this could have been done quickly because there was no power structure that could leap in to take over. The Soviets left and the religious fundies moved in because there was no one else. Everyone who might have been able to step in has already been killed or left the country.

This is nationbuilding and it takes time. You can't compare this to the rebuilding of Germany after ww2 because Germany was, and had been an industrial state for years before. Afghanistan had little inferstructure left after the Russians left and the taliban pushed them back into the dark ages.

The Libs thought it was worth the effort when we started and the mission has not changed! They need to stop playing politics and remember why we were there in the first place.



http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/s ... TVNewsAt11

   

I disagree. If the goal is freedom, no outside force can build the nation. Nation building has to be done by the locals. If any outside force tries then it's just a vassal state, an occupied territory. Emphasis on territory, meaning part of some other nation, not a nation in its own right.

My goal when I wrote a letter to Reg Alcock was to ask the Liberal government to help take out al-Qaeda, the enemy who attacked our ally, nothing more. Unfortunately what happened is not what I wanted. Then again, I was only a voter and campaign worker at the time.

   

Alright. You are correct. My terminology was wrong.
Yes, we cannot impose a government and call them free, but we also cannot swoop in, behead their leader and expect them to change overnight, expecially with drug warlords in the hills waiting to fill the power vacume.
This has turned into an insurgency and the best way to defeat it is to remove the reason for citisens to support the insurgents. By building Afghanistans inferstructure, and strengthening their society, we take the power away from the thugs and give it back to the people. That's what takes so much time.

   

Bollocks. The "religious fundies" came to power well after the Soviets left and the factions we helped drive the Soviets away proved to be nothing more then a loose knit band of criminals, tribals, and drug runners. People actually looked at the Taliban as saviours until they simply incorporated those very criminal elements and embraced a strict religious interpretation of islam. That didn't last long. The west certainly played up the religious angle during the cold war as they loved the fact that "holy warriors" were defeating the superior yet godless commies.

We sowed the seeds. We took away the only legit gov't they had and now we magnamously install ourselves as saviours with political hacks like you calling everybody who doesn't agree with you a traitor. Where were you when we boycotted the Moscow Olympics in protest for the USSR doing what we are doing? No, what they were asked to do by the Afghan gov't and what we decided to do on our own.

I guess you feel we are atoning for past mistakes. At least thats a valid point.



Just as it was before we helped (by "we" I mean the west) make it that way.

I also disagree with your assesment. We could have acomplished much of the reconstruction without the war as all we had to do was donate the material and manpower. It may have been under a islamic religious doctrine but the same type of help would have been done and without the great cost associated with war. It would take just as long for their attitudes to adjust to a more modern thinking (as we are seeing in other islamic countries that are bowing to western media scrutiny) as you seem to think this "nation building"will take. We would have far less killing and quite likely far less drug production.



The Libs supported the mission to get OBL, which was the only real mission. Had they handed him over back then we wouldn't be there and if we weren't follwoing the US we wouldn't be there. Nobody gave a fuck in all the years prior even though we knew exactly what was going on. We went in to capture somebody and it was never supposed to be about attacking a gov't that posed no threat to us whatsoever. Even the argument that we are denying a base of operations for terrorist groups holds little water becasue we can all see for ourselfs that they effortlessly moved into other regions.

Of course this is to say nothing about Iraq which we are now connected to via the fact that the US is running both wars even ignoring the fact that HArper would have had us in both wars.

Its a sick joke listening to you tell everybody else to stop playing politics when you do no such thing.

When Chretien didn't support Iraq who wa sit that attacked him relentlessly? Who are the people constantly attacking anybody who doesn't agree to your level of support for Afghanistan? Who are the people calling every other CDN a traitor if they don't support exactly as you do?

You didn't "pull togeather" from the outset of the mission. You used Chretiens refusal to support Iraq as a political point to attack his gov't and not once since 9/11 have you ever made the appeal that "Canada needs to stand united" in this tiome of war. At every turn you have used every death, every point, every conceivable event to use as a political point against the Liberals.

In short, you are hardly the person to talk.

   

To use the words of the second most famous US Marine in history...................Suprise Suprise.

WTF did Dion expect, a welcome mat? While I agree with the concept, to spout it out in public like that for world wide consumption shows a clear lack of mental acumen.

Although, perhaps it was his intention all along to piss Pakistan off knowing they'd stop even attempting to curb the Taliban and just let them run completely free in the border region, to kill even more NATO troops so he could justify withdrawing all our troops in 2009.

Or could it be that he's just one of these rare people who's brain and mouth aren't connected.

   

I just want you to clarify that. Are you telling us that the Taliban were "the only legit gov't they had"?

   

Nope. I was referring to the gov't that was in place and the one that begged the USSR for help. They were recognized as the last legit gov't.

For the record though the US recognized the Taliban as a gov't when they negotiated with them for OBL.

That act in essence gave them defacto recognition as such. Therefore they were a legit gov't.

In addition I will point out yet again that had they handed OBL over on a silver platter the US would have said thank you and been on their way.

   

Previous  1  2