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I'm not taking any sides and I'm sorry I missed that other debate, but on paper the Pak Fa does look like a nice piece of kit. People are comparing it the F 35 which is also unproven tech I guess.

Now seriously on a quest for personal knowledge, why are these things crap and looked down upon like I said on paper they look pretty up there. I would really appreciate someone who would explain without any hubris or the usual its russian so it must be a shit bias to me why and what makes the American 22's and 35's superior.

I mean I've heard crap things about American military tech here also. Like the 117s stealths always showing up on radar or that other stuff really isn't as great as its suppose to be etc etc.

   

The thing that a lot of observers tend to miss is that while Russian and Chinese fighters are stout weapons systems on their own that the fact of them being on their own is their Achilles Heel. The F22 and F35 are integrated parts of an air dominance system that includes air-to-air refueling, Combat Awareness Systems (CAS), airborne radar and command, real-time satellite information, and etc.

Another key difference with the NATO kit vs. the Russian-Chinese kit is NATO avionics are generations ahead of what those guys produce. They are catching up with us, I agree, but they have a long way to go before they achieve anything near parity. One of the really big problems they have is the corruption that is endemic in their production systems. Even if they have a fabulous system on paper it gets hosed up in the execution when the contractors and subcontractors pay bribes to the quality control inspectors and procurement officials to cut corners.

   

When fighting men in the deserts with rifles sure, but what happens when they meet an enemy that blows their command satellites out of the sky and sinks a few cruisers?

   

Then we get serious.

   

Thanks, that makes sense, but that also means as a stand alone any thing really does not have to be that great as long as it fits in nicely within the greater war making machine.

But in a stand alone head to head engagement then they are not so bad ?

   

As in one F35 plugged into to an AWACS command and control system can take out as many Russian or Chinese fighters as it has missiles before those bad guys can even detect the the F35 or it's missiles.

That's the difference.

   

Of course it's not so bad. Russian tech may not be the most technically advanced, but it's still seems to be superb, especially considering the budgets they work with.

I think the USA also wastes too much money on its military. They think all the fancy toys are guaranteed success in the battlefield, yet in the last 3 wars they have engaged in they have been largery unimpressive. 2 million dead Vietnamese and still couldn't get over the 'hump'. They were even humbled at times by paramilitaries that would pop up and dissapear within hours.

If the USA invaded a country that gave them a few sucker punches early on, IMO the Americans would quit. To put things into perspective, when the Germans invaded Russia, they lost 300,000 men in first few months; German generals didn't expect such heavy casualties so quickly (they killed over a million Ruskies). If America today moves into a country (let's say, hypothetically Iran), and lose 300,000 within the first month, you can bet your ass public opinion will not allow the war to continue. Especially if the enemy has the” fight to death attitude” that the Russians have. Even with the fancy toys.

   

Russian and superb? Have you ever looked closely at Russian kit or worked with it? It's basic and far from superb. But they have a lot of them and the capacity to make more quickly.

In response we go hi-tech and need less people to run our weapons systems. Low tech is labour intensive and Western labour is much more expensive than Russian or Chinese labour.

Either way it costs. On Vietnam, the military were hobbled by a political machine not interested in military objectives so it's a poor example. Check the numerous academic papers on it.

Fancy toys mean that in war, the fighting is left to the professionals with the fancy toys and you won't have to be drafted Sock. I’m sure you’d prefer it that way.

   

That is why exactly the military is controlled by the "civillians" and not the other way round. Otherwise some generals would go to no lenght of carnage just to stroke their own egos and prove a point.

I was just thinking the other day with the amount of power the US military industrial complex holds would it be too radical or far out to think it would get pissed off enough to actually turn on the US govt in a coup ?

   

You obviously know nothing about Americans DD.

   

No offense to you...and I mean that most respectfully.

That said, this kind of thing illustrates why so many people in the world...not just Muslims...do not grasp how we function as a country.

The majority of the people in this world are ruled over by their governments and that includes the Canadians. That's why so many people in this world have such a difficult time with the concept of "rights" and they think that their rights are a privilege granted to them by their government.

In the USA we are unique in the world in having the perspective that the government derives its power from the consent of the governed. That means that it is the common people of the United States who grant government the privilege to wield authority and that We The People have the right to revoke that privilege.

The Second Amendment to our Constitution is not about a right to have a gun, it is all about the right to have the means to depose our own government if needs be. We, as a People, reserve the right to overthrow our own government. And we frequently do - as a matter of fact, we're doing it today.

That said, no one could pull off a coup in this country because the absolute height of stupidity would be found in expecting anyone to go along with it.

Not even the President can get a coup going because the military and civil authorites would remove him from office. See, no one in our country swears an oath to protect the President or to obey anything but his lawful orders.

People in the military and in authority swear an oath to protect the Constitution.

So a coup could happen, but it would be a coup that restores civil rule, not one that deposes it. No dictator would have an easy time of it in the USA as millions would be loading their guns and forming militias to take him on. State National Guard units would take action. Local military commanders would act against this dictator, as well.

And any cabal of industrial executives who tried to run a coup would be dead before nightfall. Many of them would die at the hands of their own security details which would likely include ex-military and retired police.

In short, Americans really suck at being ordered around and bullies do not intimidate us...to the contrary, they just piss us off. We're just not worried about a coup but we are worried about too much power invested in Washington and that's why you see the Democrats getting tossed out today. They went too far with their health care law (that regulates the sale and purchase of gold...as if that has anything to do with health care) and now we'll see a new Congress pull the teeth out of that law until it is revoked.

And we do not pretend to have a perfect system. But we do believe it is the best.

   

Hey it was geninue question, for some odd reason EB always seems to be in vile mood !?

Thanks bart for the detailed explination and it does make sense. I was talking much much into the future. When the country was in deep economic crisis. The military was 10 times more powerfull ( we have already seen how loyal people are to the forces now ) and the govt was very weak.

I don't think its impossible, but a lot of things have to change. Personal opinion nothing else.

   

Sorry DD, I forgot to add the smiley! Is that better?

   

I agree. The principle thing that has to change is for more and more people to go through our public schools and enter life wholly ignorant of the principles this country was founded upon.

Imagine expecting people to be Muslims while they are ignorant of the Koran and ignorant of Islamic history. The same goes for us. I don't expect people to be Americans when they don't understand the key things that have long set the USA apart from other countries.

It deeply concerns me that I work with people who believe that rights are mere privileges and who think that the USA was created on behalf of big corporations (seriously). And, as I've often said, most Americans can't find America on a map of America. No kidding.

An ignorant people is easy to enslave.

Funny, if Osama really wanted to defeat the USA he'd do more damage as a public school administrator that he ever will as a terrorist.

   

From whatever I know, having met Americans and people of the US military and have seen in the media and not trying to be dis respectfull or making generalistaion. The average American is not a very bright spark.

I also seen stuff although done in humour like Jay Lenos Jay walking where the average joe/jane is quizzed about basic general knowledge of America and the world and the result is quite dumbfounding really

   

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