Russia sends forces into Georgian (MERGED)
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Scape @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 2:30 am
Quite right, we don't want to leap blindly into the abyss we should inch slowly into it.
On a side note I would have loved to have been a fly on the wall when that little exchange between Putin and Bush at the Great Hall. Rumor has it was when ol' pooty-poo gave Bush the heads up he was rolling in Nukes.
$1:
Thursday 07 August 2008
President Bush was informed immediately when the United States received news of the first two SS-21 Russian missile launchers into Georgian territory. This was at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, where he immediately met with President Putin. They had a discussion.
President Bush was informed immediately when the United States received news of the first two SS-21 Russian missile launchers into Georgian territory. This was at the Great Hall of the People in Beijing, where he immediately met with President Putin. They had a discussion.
Kevin Rudd reveals Bush-Putin argument at Opening Ceremony
llama66 @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 3:02 am
from http://www.cbc.ca/world/story/2008/08/1 ... ml?ref=rss
Medvedev orders halt to Russian military action in Georgia
Russian President Dmitri Medvedev ordered a halt to his country's military action in Georgia on Tuesday, saying "the aim of the operation has been realized."
"The aggressor has been punished and suffered very significant losses," Medvedev said during a nationally televised meeting with his defence minister. "Its military has been disorganized."
Medvedev's declaration came after Russian diplomats rejected a draft resolution circulated by France at the United Nations aimed at ending the conflict, while Russian forces reportedly pushed farther into the former Soviet republic earlier Tuesday.
French President Nicolas Sarkozy plans to meet with Medvedev in Moscow later in the day to push for a solidified agreement to end five days of fighting that has expanded beyond the borders of the breakaway Georgian province of South Ossetia.
The 15 members of the UN Security Council were presented with the draft resolution on Monday night. It aimed at brokering an immediate ceasefire between the two sides.
Georgia has already agreed to such a plan. Seven of the members of the G8 group of nations — Canada, the United States, Britain, France, Germany, Italy and Japan — have called on Russia, the other member, to accept a ceasefire.
Georgian president 'better go': Russian FM
Speaking in Moscow before Medvedev's announcement, Russian Foreign Minister Sergei Lavrov said his country would only accept a ceasefire once all Georgian troops have left South Ossetia for good.
He also said Russia would reject any peace proposal that included the comprisal of Georgians in a future peacekeeping unit for the region.
While diplomatic efforts are being led largely by France — the current head of the European Union — most of the focus is on how the conflict will affect Russia's often tense relationship with the United States.
In a terse statement to reporters on Monday, U.S. President George W. Bush denounced what he called Russia's dramatic and brutal escalation of violence, saying there appeared to be an attempt by Russia to unseat Georgia's pro-Western president, Mikhail Saakashvili.
But Lavrov dismissed the charge, saying Russia had no plans to remove Saakashvili from office by force. Still, he added his country's leaders will not talk to Saakashvili and that he "better go."
Sarkozy is to meet with the Russian president before heading to the Georgian capital Tbilisi to meet with Saakashvili.
Zalmay Khalilzad, the U.S. ambassador to the UN, told reporters after the Security Council meeting that he believes France's draft resolution will have broad support, especially with so many Western nations calling for Russia to back off.
Russia's UN ambassador, Vitaly Churkin, said his country also wanted the crisis resolved, but the French proposal was deficient in a "serious number" of areas.
"I hope there is eventually an agreement, a resolution which will be worked out together with us to resolve the situation," Churkin said. "But I cannot see us adopting this draft of the French resolution."
Dutch reporter killed by Russian bombing
Russian-backed separatists in another breakaway province, Abkhazia, reportedly launched an operation against Georgian forces on Tuesday, while Russian jets bombed the central Georgian city of Gori, injuring several civilians, according to a Reuters reporter on the scene.
Meanwhile, a Dutch television journalist was killed overnight by Russian bombardment of the city, the Dutch ambassador said Tuesday.
Saakashvili said Russia's advancements to Gori, located on the country's main east-west highway about 100 kilometres from the capital, meant his country has been effectively cut in half.
Each side has accused the other of killing civilians and engaging in ethnic cleansing in South Ossetia, a charge both countries' leaders have denied.
Georgia launched its military offensive on Friday to regain South Ossetia, which broke from Georgia in the early 1990s as the Soviet Union neared collapse and has been run by a Russian-backed separatist government.
Russia responded by sending about 2,500 troops into the territory.
While South Ossetia's independence is not recognized internationally, it has close ties to Russia, and almost all of its 70,000 residents have Russian passports.
Heavy_Metal @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:51 am
JustKate JustKate:
Streaker Streaker:
Think about it: Would it be wise for the Yanks or other NATO nations to risk a conflict with Russia over some little scrap of land in the middle of nowhere?
To that I'll add that it is not a certainty that the Russians are in the wrong here, although their actions seem excessive.
To that I'll add that it is not a certainty that the Russians are in the wrong here, although their actions seem excessive.
Well, personally, I HATE the Russian's, they tried to destroy North America once, nuke us. I have a memory of that fact as do many others. They need to be stopped again is all I can say.
MAD kept north america safe...or rather America....Russians were only a threat to Canadas international hockey standings
saturn_656 @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:39 am
Heavy_Metal Heavy_Metal:
JustKate JustKate:
Streaker Streaker:
Think about it: Would it be wise for the Yanks or other NATO nations to risk a conflict with Russia over some little scrap of land in the middle of nowhere?
To that I'll add that it is not a certainty that the Russians are in the wrong here, although their actions seem excessive.
To that I'll add that it is not a certainty that the Russians are in the wrong here, although their actions seem excessive.
Well, personally, I HATE the Russian's, they tried to destroy North America once, nuke us. I have a memory of that fact as do many others. They need to be stopped again is all I can say.
MAD kept north america safe...or rather America....Russians were only a threat to Canadas international hockey standings
Not old enough to remember the Cold War are you?
saturn_656 @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 5:56 am
If I were any of the former Soviet block states I'd really be concerned. This event has shown Russia that it could abuse any of the small countries surrounding it with no meaningful response from the world community.
C.M. Burns @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 8:16 am
From the New York Times:
$1:
In Georgia and Russia, a Perfect Brew for a Blowup
As the bloody military mismatch between Russia and Georgia unfolded over the past three days, even the main players were surprised by how quickly small border skirmishes slipped into a conflict that threatened the Georgian government and perhaps the country itself.
Several American and Georgian officials said that unlike when Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979, a move in which Soviet forces were massed before the attack, the nation had not appeared poised for an invasion last week. As late as Wednesday, they said, Russian diplomats had been pressing for negotiations between Georgia and South Ossetia, the breakaway region where the combat flared and then escalated into full-scale war.
“It doesn’t look like this was premeditated, with a massive staging of equipment,” one senior American official said. “Until the night before the fighting, Russia seemed to be playing a constructive role.”
Read the full articleAs the bloody military mismatch between Russia and Georgia unfolded over the past three days, even the main players were surprised by how quickly small border skirmishes slipped into a conflict that threatened the Georgian government and perhaps the country itself.
Several American and Georgian officials said that unlike when Russia invaded Afghanistan in 1979, a move in which Soviet forces were massed before the attack, the nation had not appeared poised for an invasion last week. As late as Wednesday, they said, Russian diplomats had been pressing for negotiations between Georgia and South Ossetia, the breakaway region where the combat flared and then escalated into full-scale war.
“It doesn’t look like this was premeditated, with a massive staging of equipment,” one senior American official said. “Until the night before the fighting, Russia seemed to be playing a constructive role.”
And, from the National Post:
$1:
Georgia's firecracker president loses control of his fuse
Since coming to power following the Rose Revolution of 2003, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has shown himself to be something of a hothead.
At a news briefing following his inauguration, advised his justice minister “to use force when dealing with any attempt to stage prison riots, and to open fire, shoot to kill and destroy any criminal who attempts to cause turmoil. We will not spare bullets against these people.”
...
But with Russian troops invading on two fronts and Georgia’s army falling back on the capital in what is shaping up to be a desperate last stand, it is also true that the hothead from Tbilisi has done more to further Russia’s aims than Vladimir Putin himself.
Read the full article
Since coming to power following the Rose Revolution of 2003, Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili has shown himself to be something of a hothead.
At a news briefing following his inauguration, advised his justice minister “to use force when dealing with any attempt to stage prison riots, and to open fire, shoot to kill and destroy any criminal who attempts to cause turmoil. We will not spare bullets against these people.”
...
But with Russian troops invading on two fronts and Georgia’s army falling back on the capital in what is shaping up to be a desperate last stand, it is also true that the hothead from Tbilisi has done more to further Russia’s aims than Vladimir Putin himself.
Zipperfish @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 9:07 am
C.M. Burns C.M. Burns:
$1:
War Nerd: South Ossetia, The War of My Dreams
By Gary Brecher
.
By Gary Brecher
.
Read the complete article at the THE EXILED
That was a fantastic read. I'm going to add that site to my weekly reading list. Thanks.
Scape @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 10:36 am
Great vid
Fox News: Calls for a NATO NO-FLY Zone
djakeydd @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 4:32 pm
Looks to me like Georgie has a huge load in his diaper now. His fascist puppet pal Saakashvili is about to get the punt in a big way. It makes me so sad I think i may cry.. 
http://rense.com/general83/pup.htm
Scape @ Tue Aug 12, 2008 11:58 pm
Russian triumph as Saakashvili's gamble fails
$1:
The three-day war in South Ossetia is settled, and the Georgians have lost. There may be some more shooting yet, but it is now clear that Georgia will never regain control of the rebel territories of South Ossetia and Abkhazia.
Also that President Mikhail Saakashvili has handed Russia a major victory, and that Georgia's hopes of joining NATO are gone. Pretty impressive work for one long weekend.
Now Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital."
Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war. The chronology tells it all. Skirmishes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian militia were more frequent than usual over the past several months, but on the afternoon of Thursday, August 7, Saakashvili offered the separatist South Ossetian Government "an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks," promising that "full autonomy" was on the table.
The same evening, however, he ordered a general offensive.
South Ossetia's President, Eduard Kokoity, called Saakashvili's ceasefire offer a "despicable and treacherous" ruse, which seems fair enough. Through all of Thursday night and Friday morning, Georgian artillery shells and rockets rained down on the little city of Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, while Georgian infantry and tanks encircled it. Russian journalists reported that 70 per cent of the city was destroyed, and by Friday afternoon it was in Georgian hands.
It was obvious that this offensive had been planned well in advance, but this, it appears, was as far as Saakashvili's plan extended. He assumed that the world's attention would be distracted by the opening of the Olympics, and that the Russian reaction would be slow because Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was off in Beijing.
If he had three or four days to establish full military control of South Ossetia, then he could put a pro-Georgian administration in place and declare the problem solved. Then, with Western diplomatic support and military aid, he could withstand the furious Russian protests and (perhaps) military responses to his action.
But all of his calculations were wrong. There was no delay in the Russian response. A large force was on its way from North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation) by midday on Friday, and Russian jets began striking targets inside Georgia proper.
By the time Vladimir Putin reached the North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz on Saturday morning, the Georgian forces were already being driven out of Tskhinvali again. By Saturday evening, Georgia was calling for a ceasefire and declaring that all its troops were being withdrawn from South Ossetia to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe".
Saakashvili's gamble had failed, and any prospect for Georgia to recover the rebel province had vanished. As Putin put it, the territorial integrity of Georgia has "suffered a fatal blow".
Not just South Ossetia has been lost for good. Any hope that Georgia could ever recover its other breakaway province, Abkhazia, has also evaporated.
On Saturday, the Abkhazian Government announced a military offensive to drive Georgian troops out of the Kodori Gorge, the last bit of Abkhazian territory that it doesn't control. With overt Russian military support, it is very likely to succeed.
How much does all of this matter? It matters a great deal to Saakashvili, who is likely to lose power. It matters a lot to the 300,000 Georgians who fled their homes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia when the two ethnic enclaves, which had been autonomous parts of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in Soviet times, declared their independence after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.
The Georgian attempts to reconquer them in 1992-93 were bloody failures, and after this second failure it is clear that the Georgian refugees will never go home.
It is a reason to rejoice for most Abkhazians and South Ossetians. Although they share much history and a common eastern Orthodox Christianity with the far more numerous Georgians, they are ethnically distinct peoples with different languages, and they always resented Stalin's decision to place them under Georgian rule.
It will probably be decades before they achieve formal independence or are fully absorbed into the Russian Federation, but either way they will be happy with the outcome.
The Bush Administration's ambition to extend Nato into the Caucasus mountains is dead, which will please the French, the Germans and other Nato members who always found it bizarre and wilfully provocative.
Russians, who were the target of the provocation, will be quietly pleased with the speed and effectiveness of their Government's response. There is no great moral issue here. What Georgia tried to do to South Ossetia is precisely what Russia did to Chechnya, but Georgia wasn't strong enough and South Ossetia had a bigger friend. There is no great strategic issue either: apart from a few pipeline routes, the whole Transcaucasus is of little importance to the rest of the world.
In six months' time, we probably won't even remember this foolish adventure.
Also that President Mikhail Saakashvili has handed Russia a major victory, and that Georgia's hopes of joining NATO are gone. Pretty impressive work for one long weekend.
Now Saakashvili is playing on old Cold War stereotypes of the Russian threat in a desperate bid for Western backing: "What Russia is doing in Georgia is open, unhidden aggression and a challenge to the whole world. If the whole world does not stop Russia today, then Russian tanks will be able to reach any other European capital."
Nonsense. It was Georgia that started this war. The chronology tells it all. Skirmishes between Georgian troops and South Ossetian militia were more frequent than usual over the past several months, but on the afternoon of Thursday, August 7, Saakashvili offered the separatist South Ossetian Government "an immediate ceasefire and the immediate beginning of talks," promising that "full autonomy" was on the table.
The same evening, however, he ordered a general offensive.
South Ossetia's President, Eduard Kokoity, called Saakashvili's ceasefire offer a "despicable and treacherous" ruse, which seems fair enough. Through all of Thursday night and Friday morning, Georgian artillery shells and rockets rained down on the little city of Tskhinvali, South Ossetia's capital, while Georgian infantry and tanks encircled it. Russian journalists reported that 70 per cent of the city was destroyed, and by Friday afternoon it was in Georgian hands.
It was obvious that this offensive had been planned well in advance, but this, it appears, was as far as Saakashvili's plan extended. He assumed that the world's attention would be distracted by the opening of the Olympics, and that the Russian reaction would be slow because Prime Minister Vladimir Putin was off in Beijing.
If he had three or four days to establish full military control of South Ossetia, then he could put a pro-Georgian administration in place and declare the problem solved. Then, with Western diplomatic support and military aid, he could withstand the furious Russian protests and (perhaps) military responses to his action.
But all of his calculations were wrong. There was no delay in the Russian response. A large force was on its way from North Ossetia (which is part of the Russian Federation) by midday on Friday, and Russian jets began striking targets inside Georgia proper.
By the time Vladimir Putin reached the North Ossetian capital of Vladikavkaz on Saturday morning, the Georgian forces were already being driven out of Tskhinvali again. By Saturday evening, Georgia was calling for a ceasefire and declaring that all its troops were being withdrawn from South Ossetia to prevent a "humanitarian catastrophe".
Saakashvili's gamble had failed, and any prospect for Georgia to recover the rebel province had vanished. As Putin put it, the territorial integrity of Georgia has "suffered a fatal blow".
Not just South Ossetia has been lost for good. Any hope that Georgia could ever recover its other breakaway province, Abkhazia, has also evaporated.
On Saturday, the Abkhazian Government announced a military offensive to drive Georgian troops out of the Kodori Gorge, the last bit of Abkhazian territory that it doesn't control. With overt Russian military support, it is very likely to succeed.
How much does all of this matter? It matters a great deal to Saakashvili, who is likely to lose power. It matters a lot to the 300,000 Georgians who fled their homes in Abkhazia and South Ossetia when the two ethnic enclaves, which had been autonomous parts of the Georgian Soviet Socialist Republic in Soviet times, declared their independence after the Soviet Union collapsed in 1991.
The Georgian attempts to reconquer them in 1992-93 were bloody failures, and after this second failure it is clear that the Georgian refugees will never go home.
It is a reason to rejoice for most Abkhazians and South Ossetians. Although they share much history and a common eastern Orthodox Christianity with the far more numerous Georgians, they are ethnically distinct peoples with different languages, and they always resented Stalin's decision to place them under Georgian rule.
It will probably be decades before they achieve formal independence or are fully absorbed into the Russian Federation, but either way they will be happy with the outcome.
The Bush Administration's ambition to extend Nato into the Caucasus mountains is dead, which will please the French, the Germans and other Nato members who always found it bizarre and wilfully provocative.
Russians, who were the target of the provocation, will be quietly pleased with the speed and effectiveness of their Government's response. There is no great moral issue here. What Georgia tried to do to South Ossetia is precisely what Russia did to Chechnya, but Georgia wasn't strong enough and South Ossetia had a bigger friend. There is no great strategic issue either: apart from a few pipeline routes, the whole Transcaucasus is of little importance to the rest of the world.
In six months' time, we probably won't even remember this foolish adventure.
martin14 @ Wed Aug 13, 2008 12:54 am
interesting article... another Saddam Husseinlike 'misinterpretation' of signals ??
Scape @ Wed Aug 13, 2008 1:42 am
Well, you gotta think Israel and the US were giving all the wrong signals. This guy had already been on the offensive before and didn't get rebuked and he thought the Olympics would provide enough of a smokescreen that it wouldn't get a high profile.
So, yeah he's a fall guy and his people paid dearly for it.
Arctic_Menace @ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:30 am
Okay, is Putin the President or the Prime Minister, because I've heard so many screw ups in the media, that it has left me confused... 
martin14 @ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:41 am
Arctic_Menace Arctic_Menace:
Okay, is Putin the President or the Prime Minister, because I've heard so many screw ups in the media, that it has left me confused...
officially, Prime Minister,
Medvedev is President, the Head of State
but its pretty obvious who is still calling the shots in Russia.......
ShepherdsDog @ Wed Aug 13, 2008 6:42 am
he's the guy in charge.......but his title is PM
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