Turning tables on Occupy Toronto
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Brenda @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:29 pm
Yeah, but not from $12/hr.
eureka @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:38 pm
Caelon Caelon:
eureka eureka:
"There's no reason in the world why you can't do the same or better. Just apply yourself instead of blaming successful people for magically affecting your failures and then focus on your success. It's amazing what you can do when you set yourself to the task. 
"
The Horatio Alger story has always been part of the American mythology, Bart. It has served the purveyors of the myth well in fooling enough of the people that they can go on robbing them blind and enjoying their status in the 1%.
Unfortunately, very few can be lucky enough to do what you have done. Your position as outlined gives you about ten times as much as the lowest quintile. It would require a sudden increase in American National income and wealth of several trillion dollars for that to happen. Without regard to how it could be done and that would require a vast number of people competing for the limited number of opportunities to make that wealth and income.
"The Horatio Alger story has always been part of the American mythology, Bart. It has served the purveyors of the myth well in fooling enough of the people that they can go on robbing them blind and enjoying their status in the 1%.
Unfortunately, very few can be lucky enough to do what you have done. Your position as outlined gives you about ten times as much as the lowest quintile. It would require a sudden increase in American National income and wealth of several trillion dollars for that to happen. Without regard to how it could be done and that would require a vast number of people competing for the limited number of opportunities to make that wealth and income.
You really do not get it do you? Everyone can make their situation better if they try in realistic terms. Budget! Budget! Budget! Even people on low incomes of $12/hour can save. Pay yourself first (savings plan)and live within your means (the balance). If that means living on 3 ounces of meat per day (recommended amount anyways) then do so. Don't buy fast food, don't smoke, don't go to the bar. In short make do like your grandparents and you will accumulate wealth over time. They did.
Would you suggest that they also stop breathing? What would your prescription bring other than a lifetime of misery? Progress in a society is not progress for society unless it is shared progress.
Looking at the USA where there is a real unemployment rate of (estimated) 18%, where does your example fit? Remember, too, that the 18% does nor even include all the disabled and others who are on permanent low wage without the possibility of better.
Caelon @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 9:57 pm
Brenda Brenda:
Yeah, but not from $12/hr.
No really. I am not saying I would enjoy how they live, but I see people doing it. I see others with a lot more money who spend it all on image and have no savings. They will have the big house, luxury cars and have more money in gross monthly income than most people see in a year. They are also one pay cheque away from it crashing all around them.
I have talked to single mothers who started with nothing, but a minimum wage job. Through sacrifice they managed to obtain training for higher paying jobs and taking one step at a time over 20 years have become financially secure. Their stories of the hard times would bring a tear to your eye.
This is a true story of one man. His family was poor with just the father working at a low hourly rate. They had 6 kids and he was the youngest boy. He wore hand me down clothes. The other kids made fun of him as his clothes were many years out of fashion. He won an award for academic and sports excellence when he was 14 that saw him walk up on to the stage in front of the whole school. He was so embarrased about the clothes he was wearing he couldn't hold back the tears. That day changed his life. He swore he would never live like his family ever again. He did whatever it took to succeed in life. Today he would be considered wealthy by most. He has the usual trappings of a nice home, car, etc, but he also spends his time encouraging others to succeed like he has. He gives back on a daily basis.
It can be done, you just have to want it enough.
Caelon @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:07 pm
eureka eureka:
Would you suggest that they also stop breathing? What would your prescription bring other than a lifetime of misery? Progress in a society is not progress for society unless it is shared progress.
Looking at the USA where there is a real unemployment rate of (estimated) 18%, where does your example fit? Remember, too, that the 18% does nor even include all the disabled and others who are on permanent low wage without the possibility of better.
Looking at the USA where there is a real unemployment rate of (estimated) 18%, where does your example fit? Remember, too, that the 18% does nor even include all the disabled and others who are on permanent low wage without the possibility of better.
Read the posts again. You will see it can be done by those who have the drive. For those that throw up their hands and say poor me they will never make it. You could give them handouts until the cows come home and they would still have nothing. For those with the drive to improve they will be able to take a handout and turn it into a lifetime of achievement.
It seems there is a greater percentage of the population who are not willing to put in the required effort to succeed than those who will. Those that won't will then complain about how the others owe them handouts. It wasn't their fault they were too lazy to work for it.
Look at your own life. Did you make it to your position waiting for handouts or did you work for what you have?
Bruce_the_vii @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 10:47 pm
Here we go again. Blaming the poor for the capitalistic system. Even if everyone had drive there would be unemployment and poverty more than likely. What you are suggesting is a dynamic, entrepreneurial world where the people's energy creates a utopia. This is similar to what the communists suggest.
Don't get me wrong, drive and talent make the world go around. It's important, essential. It's just that the state of the art of social engineering has it there is still exploitation. All the developed countries have compensating social programs. Unfortunately they are overloaded and more or less beyond our means to pay for. The worker point of view is they work bloody hard for their family, they do have the drive. Mostly they put in long hours. It's just that the pie is a bit short.
sandorski @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:01 pm
If we were all Millionaires, penny candy would cost $1,000 a piece.
Zipperfish @ Mon Nov 21, 2011 11:22 pm
andyt andyt:
Drinking again or what? With what you've posted here previously, you can't be serious. The problem of inequality is because people are drinking Tim's coffee and eating Big Macs?
No booze out here, buddy. You're going to have to get some new material.
I've considered your position and determined that you are wrong. please adjust your opinion accordingly.
andyt @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 1:13 am
Gunnair Gunnair:
andyt andyt:
Not well said at all. Just more of "the peasants aren't bad off because they still have enough to eat" crap. You guys really have no problem with ever increasing income/wealth inequality and what that does to social cohesion?
And then, nice conflation of the consumer and the occupy movement. The idea for Occupy came from the Adbusters guy - ie it is an anti consumption movement. The people who PA described are the ones that Brenda said just want to get home after work, ie the ones with their heads down and not paying attention.
I agree with demonstrating in front of corporations. But that's why it's called occupy Wall Street - that was their original destination until prevented by police. And there's already been plenty of tightie rightie bleating on this forum about how the protesters are impacting the enconomy. It they really followed PA's advice, I'm sure he'd be setting his hair on fire about that. It seems these poor guys can't win - whatever they do, the tighties say they would only have cred if they did the opposite.
And then, nice conflation of the consumer and the occupy movement. The idea for Occupy came from the Adbusters guy - ie it is an anti consumption movement. The people who PA described are the ones that Brenda said just want to get home after work, ie the ones with their heads down and not paying attention.
I agree with demonstrating in front of corporations. But that's why it's called occupy Wall Street - that was their original destination until prevented by police. And there's already been plenty of tightie rightie bleating on this forum about how the protesters are impacting the enconomy. It they really followed PA's advice, I'm sure he'd be setting his hair on fire about that. It seems these poor guys can't win - whatever they do, the tighties say they would only have cred if they did the opposite.
Holy fuck, what part of punish the corporations by boycotting their products and cutting into their profit margin to show how much you dislike their questionable business practices can't you get through your fucking skull?
Yeah, that's it. Let's all boycott McD's and Timmies and we'll solve the problem of income inequality. Brilliant. You should take it on the road. What exactly is it you don't like about McD's and Timmies business practices? You don't want them to pay a decent minimum wage. Aside from paying their employees shit wages, what else exactly are these particular companies doing that's so bad?
Everybody agrees Occupy has to evolve to become effective. The problem are the politicians so Occupy should be occupying the politicians offices. Or occupy Parliament Hill. (Not Parliament in the sense of disrupting it.)
But jeez, coming down on occupy because the odd participant has a cup of Timmies or a Big Mac - how stupid can you get? In Vancouver, they were mostly cooking their own, donated food - which of course attracted the homeless.
PublicAnimalNo9 @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 2:39 am
andyt andyt:
Gunnair Gunnair:
andyt andyt:
Not well said at all. Just more of "the peasants aren't bad off because they still have enough to eat" crap. You guys really have no problem with ever increasing income/wealth inequality and what that does to social cohesion?
And then, nice conflation of the consumer and the occupy movement. The idea for Occupy came from the Adbusters guy - ie it is an anti consumption movement. The people who PA described are the ones that Brenda said just want to get home after work, ie the ones with their heads down and not paying attention.
I agree with demonstrating in front of corporations. But that's why it's called occupy Wall Street - that was their original destination until prevented by police. And there's already been plenty of tightie rightie bleating on this forum about how the protesters are impacting the enconomy. It they really followed PA's advice, I'm sure he'd be setting his hair on fire about that. It seems these poor guys can't win - whatever they do, the tighties say they would only have cred if they did the opposite.
And then, nice conflation of the consumer and the occupy movement. The idea for Occupy came from the Adbusters guy - ie it is an anti consumption movement. The people who PA described are the ones that Brenda said just want to get home after work, ie the ones with their heads down and not paying attention.
I agree with demonstrating in front of corporations. But that's why it's called occupy Wall Street - that was their original destination until prevented by police. And there's already been plenty of tightie rightie bleating on this forum about how the protesters are impacting the enconomy. It they really followed PA's advice, I'm sure he'd be setting his hair on fire about that. It seems these poor guys can't win - whatever they do, the tighties say they would only have cred if they did the opposite.
Holy fuck, what part of punish the corporations by boycotting their products and cutting into their profit margin to show how much you dislike their questionable business practices can't you get through your fucking skull?
Yeah, that's it. Let's all boycott McD's and Timmies and we'll solve the problem of income inequality. Brilliant. You should take it on the road. What exactly is it you don't like about McD's and Timmies business practices? You don't want them to pay a decent minimum wage. Aside from paying their employees shit wages, what else exactly are these particular companies doing that's so bad?
Everybody agrees Occupy has to evolve to become effective. The problem are the politicians so Occupy should be occupying the politicians offices. Or occupy Parliament Hill. (Not Parliament in the sense of disrupting it.)
But jeez, coming down on occupy because the odd participant has a cup of Timmies or a Big Mac - how stupid can you get? In Vancouver, they were mostly cooking their own, donated food - which of course attracted the homeless.
Jesus Christ andy, Timmy's and McD's are just two friggin' examples. They were merely singled out to symbolize the bigger problem. But of course, context isn't exactly your forte.
Let's put it this way, a free market is actually wonderfully democratic. With a few obvious exceptions, you vote with your wallet. If I don't like the way McD's does something, I vote(spend my money) elsewhere, say BK. If they do something I'm singularily unimpressed with, there's Wendy's. If the fast food industry in general just pisses me off, I go to the grocery store, pick up some buns, ground beef and make my own fucking burger. And guess what? I even save money in the process.
Amazingly, this process works for almost any business or industry. If you don't like a corporation's take no prisoners profit driven attitude, then don't financially support that corporation. Those corporations will hear the wallets slamming shut long before the gov't does anything about the situation.
Much more effective than sitting or milling around in some park pretending you're accomplishing some noble goal.
eureka @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:04 am
Every corporation has a "take no prisoners, profit driven attitude." The "Free Market" demands it and any that does not will soon go to the wall. That is what government is there for. To ensure conditions that do not allow that extreme to develop.
But this is all a distraction; an attempt to demonise the victims. That is an art that has been perfected by the Right Wing and the propaganda machine that it created so effectively.
There is only one economic question and that is the ethical one of a lop sided distribution of society's pie. Is it fair or not.
raydan @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:09 am
Caelon @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:20 am
Caelon Caelon:
I was reading through this thread about the empty tents and my mind began to wander. While I feel everyone has a right to protest in a peaceful manner the occupy movement has degenerated into just breaking the law as the individuals involved believe they can get away with it. Sort of like looters during a riot. Anyways some of the thoughts that passed through my mind were
1. Every night the police could remove the empty tents and contents as abandoned property.
2. Garbage bins could be placed in the park for the convienence of all and emptied every night betwen 2 AM and 4 AM using floodlights and back up beepers to increase safety. The noise of banging metal bins, diesel engines etc should not distrub anyone in a public park at that time of day.
3. As a public park it must have a sprinkler system. It would be wise to ensure adequate ground moisture for spring growth so random operation through out the day and night would be a good plan. If any person delibertly damaged a sprinkler head that would be a criminal offence. It might also be wise to clean the lines with air after each use to prevent freezing. It only makes a little noise.
1. Every night the police could remove the empty tents and contents as abandoned property.
2. Garbage bins could be placed in the park for the convienence of all and emptied every night betwen 2 AM and 4 AM using floodlights and back up beepers to increase safety. The noise of banging metal bins, diesel engines etc should not distrub anyone in a public park at that time of day.
3. As a public park it must have a sprinkler system. It would be wise to ensure adequate ground moisture for spring growth so random operation through out the day and night would be a good plan. If any person delibertly damaged a sprinkler head that would be a criminal offence. It might also be wise to clean the lines with air after each use to prevent freezing. It only makes a little noise.
At least as far as Calgary and a few other cities it looks as though te authorites chose option #1 last night. The video clip I saw looked like Ezra was correct and the majority of tents were unoccupied.
Gunnair @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 7:49 am
andyt andyt:
Gunnair Gunnair:
andyt andyt:
Not well said at all. Just more of "the peasants aren't bad off because they still have enough to eat" crap. You guys really have no problem with ever increasing income/wealth inequality and what that does to social cohesion?
And then, nice conflation of the consumer and the occupy movement. The idea for Occupy came from the Adbusters guy - ie it is an anti consumption movement. The people who PA described are the ones that Brenda said just want to get home after work, ie the ones with their heads down and not paying attention.
I agree with demonstrating in front of corporations. But that's why it's called occupy Wall Street - that was their original destination until prevented by police. And there's already been plenty of tightie rightie bleating on this forum about how the protesters are impacting the enconomy. It they really followed PA's advice, I'm sure he'd be setting his hair on fire about that. It seems these poor guys can't win - whatever they do, the tighties say they would only have cred if they did the opposite.
And then, nice conflation of the consumer and the occupy movement. The idea for Occupy came from the Adbusters guy - ie it is an anti consumption movement. The people who PA described are the ones that Brenda said just want to get home after work, ie the ones with their heads down and not paying attention.
I agree with demonstrating in front of corporations. But that's why it's called occupy Wall Street - that was their original destination until prevented by police. And there's already been plenty of tightie rightie bleating on this forum about how the protesters are impacting the enconomy. It they really followed PA's advice, I'm sure he'd be setting his hair on fire about that. It seems these poor guys can't win - whatever they do, the tighties say they would only have cred if they did the opposite.
Holy fuck, what part of punish the corporations by boycotting their products and cutting into their profit margin to show how much you dislike their questionable business practices can't you get through your fucking skull?
Yeah, that's it. Let's all boycott McD's and Timmies and we'll solve the problem of income inequality. Brilliant. You should take it on the road. What exactly is it you don't like about McD's and Timmies business practices? You don't want them to pay a decent minimum wage. Aside from paying their employees shit wages, what else exactly are these particular companies doing that's so bad?
Everybody agrees Occupy has to evolve to become effective. The problem are the politicians so Occupy should be occupying the politicians offices. Or occupy Parliament Hill. (Not Parliament in the sense of disrupting it.)
But jeez, coming down on occupy because the odd participant has a cup of Timmies or a Big Mac - how stupid can you get? In Vancouver, they were mostly cooking their own, donated food - which of course attracted the homeless.
Well, it's easy to understand why you are in your current life position - you are simply a fucking idiot. If you somehow equate taking big corporations to task by boycotting them as yet another slur against the working poor by denying them their Timmies or their Big Mac, then you are indeed nothing more than a yapping forum fucktard.
You bitch at Timmies and how much they pay? Boycott Timmies for better wages. Don't like the starting wage at Mcdonalds? Boycott them and let them know they're being boycotted. Don't like bailouts of Dodge? Don't buy Dodge and let them know it. Finally, don't like bailout period, vote for the candidate that has the same opinion.
... or, you can be the whiny bitch that you are that has gone from needless provoking of an issue to downright being a shitiot that consistently fails to grasp any point thrown out that actually supports his position of taking corporations to task on their policies.
Zipperfish @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:22 am
Gunnair Gunnair:
[
Well, it's easy to understand why you are in your current life position - you are simply a fucking idiot.
Well, it's easy to understand why you are in your current life position - you are simply a fucking idiot.
fidiot?
You saw it here first folks. When it's all ove the Internet, I want a cut.
Brenda @ Tue Nov 22, 2011 9:27 am
Caelon Caelon:
Brenda Brenda:
Yeah, but not from $12/hr.
No really. I am not saying I would enjoy how they live, but I see people doing it. I see others with a lot more money who spend it all on image and have no savings. They will have the big house, luxury cars and have more money in gross monthly income than most people see in a year. They are also one pay cheque away from it crashing all around them.
I have talked to single mothers who started with nothing, but a minimum wage job. Through sacrifice they managed to obtain training for higher paying jobs and taking one step at a time over 20 years have become financially secure. Their stories of the hard times would bring a tear to your eye.
This is a true story of one man. His family was poor with just the father working at a low hourly rate. They had 6 kids and he was the youngest boy. He wore hand me down clothes. The other kids made fun of him as his clothes were many years out of fashion. He won an award for academic and sports excellence when he was 14 that saw him walk up on to the stage in front of the whole school. He was so embarrased about the clothes he was wearing he couldn't hold back the tears. That day changed his life. He swore he would never live like his family ever again. He did whatever it took to succeed in life. Today he would be considered wealthy by most. He has the usual trappings of a nice home, car, etc, but he also spends his time encouraging others to succeed like he has. He gives back on a daily basis.
It can be done, you just have to want it enough.
I am sure dad made $12/hr, feeding his kids AND saving. [/sarcasm]
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