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"I know you're a statist"

Really and you know this about me, how?

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We have met the enemy and he is us
Pogo
A mind is a fire to be kindled, not a vessel to be filled.
Plutarch

   

Diogenes is hardly a statist. Little things give away a persons politics. For example, he posted an article on the Emilia Romagna cooperative movement and agrees that this is a good alternative to the present corporate state. Cooperators, by the very fact that they wish corporate and state run industries to be replaced by cooperatives - and thereby empowering the population, not the bureaucrats of either corporation or government, can not be statists. A statist cooperator is an oxymoron like dry water or statist anarchist. I might add that more and more people are moving in that direction world-wide, the sort of people that in the past would have been attracted to ML or Fabian economic solutions because they figured that was the only possible alternative to the corporate state. But the real world is rarely an either-or choice. We do not have to choose between two kinds of tyranny - the corporate state or full state capitalism - we can choose empowerment, ie cooperative production.

   

Communalistic models bind people too closely together. To me, the detachment from one another that comes with the "economic man" concept is essential for the success of a large society. Private property and exchanges of value for value are part of that detachment.

Cooperatives do not scale well beyond the small enterprise. In some cases they are a valid alternative to other forms of business organization, but try to imagine a carmaker or aerospace manufacturer run as a cooperative.

And as for Diogenes' opinions, admittedly it's hard to discern what they are, because he spends most of his time dismissing and making sarcastic and/or cryptic remarks about the opinions of others.

   

As I said elsewhere, it's admittedly hard to know where you stand.

I'm glad to see actual quote marks in one of your posts though.

   

Wrong! The largest bank in Quebec is a cooperative. It has assets of $120 billion and 4 million+ members. There are even larger coops in Europe - google Mondragon - which is a major Spanish manufacturer of industrial products which has 63,000 employees. It is not at all hard to imagine an auto or aircraft factory being run as a cooperative. Already many of the parts are made by smaller producers. These could be coops (as they are In Emilia Romagna) and the assembly plant could be owned by a federation. This is the solution for economies of scale, by the way - federation. You don't need top-down, centralized, undemocratic, exploitative, authoritarian organizations to have an economy of scale and the large-scale coops prove this.

As for Diogenes. Sure he likes to take the piss out of people, but he is very sincere about coops as you should pick up from the two lengthy postings, as well as his tip of the hat directed at me.

   

"Communalistic models bind people too closely together. To me, the detachment from one another that comes with the "economic man" concept is essential for the success of a large society. Private property and exchanges of value for value are part of that detachment."

First off, the cooperative does not mean the absence of private property. It has to do with function. That which is best done by individuals or families, should be done by them. At a larger scale you have the coop. This allows for private property rather than abolishes it. Each member has his-her share of the coop as property. Coops exchange thru a market - a market that would be a lot freer than one crippled by those spoiled children of the state, the corporation, an institution that can be seen as a form of right-wing "communalism." As for "economic man", as an anthropologist, I can tell you right now that such a being never existed.

   

A rather confused individual, I'd say and ya still didn't respond to my Q.
How do you "know" OH, I see! You don't and will make claims you do

There are clinical drug trials for that ya know? shall I enroll you? he said with a grin

---
We have met the enemy and he is us
Pogo
A mind is a fire to be kindled, not a vessel to be filled.
Plutarch

   

&#8220;Cooperatives do not scale well beyond the small enterprise.&#8221;<br />
<br />
au contraire, my amusing little follower<br />
to reiterate<br />
Mondragon<br />
<a href="http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/long_mondragon.html">http://www.cooperativeindividualism.org/long_mondragon.html</a> <br />
MCF began quietly on a tiny scale with one co-op and 12 workers nearly 40 years ago under the fascist Franco dictatorship. The original members were educated but poor and had to borrow money from sympathetic community members to get started. By 1994, the MCF had become the fifteenth biggest business group in Spain, comprising some 170 co-ops and over 25,000 worker members and their families, with vast assets, large financial reserves, and annual sales of around three billion US dollars.<br />
Takin the piss outta the ill informed is a pleasure when doing to and not when done to<br />
You might wanna Google &#8216;Diogenes&#8217; to get the skinny on why that particular nom de guerre<br />
<br />
here is hoping you have learned something valuable <p>---<br>We have met the enemy and he is us<br />
Pogo<br />
A mind is a fire to be kindled, not a vessel to be filled.<br />
Plutarch

   

>> Christians should stand up and distance themselves from the haters, liars, war-mongers and mammon-worshippers, whose real god it would seem, has a name that begins with an "S" and not a "J".<br />
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1 - There is no doubt about it Alberta's Bible belt is the devil's belt and that is how much of a historic change there has been.. Imagine that Most churches took the Alberta's government gambling profit proceeds and it is only lately that a few have taken a stand against gambling proceeds. But Alberta is not typical of all tthe types of Christians in Canada now are they?<br />
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2 Who would have imagined so many evangelicals now practicing, and counseling divorce as well.. marital and relationship ones too.<br />
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3 But it also amazes me how many people here are the so called experts on Christians when they likely have no enter into a church on Easter or Christmas to start of with too.<br />
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Now if one has sat in an evangelical church for at least 20 years or more than one can criticize it fairly, but if one is merely one of those passerby from the outside one's comments are really irrelevant, meaningless especialy here too.<br />
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4 And to lump, label most Christians in Canada as even being now evangelicals is an undeniable, great distortions, for the last time I looked it is undeniable as well that the Pentecostal Christians are still not speaking to the Baptist -Plymouth Brethren fundamental Christians, and even the Baptist, Brethren are split between the liberals and the fundamental, and one does not talk to the others, and the Christian Missionary Alliance churches still tend to have nothing to do with anyone but their own.. as Stephen Harper shows us when he avoid the church sponsored aids conference in Toronto. Then there are the Mennonites who support their own and they also have liberal and fundamental splits too.. etc.,<br />
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5 But one thing is true you can tell if people are realy christians if they realy do care and help the poor people.. and it is an undenaible fact in Canada that most christians churches do nto even help the lcoal poor people int heir own church.<br />
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(John 13:34 KJV) A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another. 35 By this shall all men know that ye are my disciples, if ye have love one to another.<br />
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(1 Cor 16:1 KJV) Now concerning the collection for the saints, as I have given order to the churches of Galatia, even so do ye.<br />
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Now the weekly church offering was to help the poor people (1 Cor 16:2 KJV) Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come.<br />
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Even the old testament commands that about 1/7 of the tithes was to be sued to help the poor people.. And anyone who lives of the benefits of the tithes could not own any property or lands.. thus any pastor receiving tithes today included.<br />
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<a href="http://pbulow.tripod.com/tithing.html">http://pbulow.tripod.com/tithing.html</a>

   

Yes there are both relgious and non religious ostriches..<br />
who rather indulge in porn.. <br />
<br />
The federal government and the police, wrongfully still do not do too much about hatred being spread on the Internet, nor the much too much pornography.. One of the most pervasive and destructive problems in our society is pornography as well.<br />
<br />
"Glorify God in Your Body - “God created man in his image; in the divine image he created him; male and female he created them” (Gn 1:27). <br />
<br />
From the beginning of time, man and woman had a deep sense that the human body is sacred. Created in the divine image, the body is to be treated with respect. The People of Israel particularly gave evidence to this. The reverence with which they viewed the act of sexual intimacy as well as the procreative aspect associated with sexual love set the Israelites apart from other cultures in the ancient world. Many of these other nations engaged in acts and fertility cults which profaned the gift of sexuality. At times, when the People of Israel strayed and engaged in practices common to the pagan cultures, the prophets quickly corrected them, calling them back to fidelity to their covenant with God. <br />
<br />
In his mission to the Gentiles, Saint Paul had to confront many pagan practices, including rampant sexual immorality. Many parts of the ancient Mediterranean world were infamous for their debauchery. Among these was the port city of Corinth. Paul patiently and zealously proclaimed the Gospel to these people, many of whom desired a better life, a more moral way of living. Ancient Rome, the capital of the Roman Empire, was also noted for the depravity of many of the more privileged citizens. The message of Christ, a message of love and of hope, of sacrifice, simplicity and chastity, was a welcome message among those who were disheartened by the corruption of the Imperial court. <br />
<br />
In his Letter to the Romans, Saint Paul wrote: “I urge you therefore, brothers, by the mercies of God, to offer your bodies as a living sacrifice, holy and pleasing to God, your spiritual worship. Do not conform yourselves to this age but be transformed by the renewal of your mind, that you may discern what is the will of God, what is good and pleasing and perfect” (Rm 12: 1-2). To the Corinthians, Saint Paul wrote: “Avoid immorality. Every other sin a person commits is outside the body, but the immoral person sins against his own body. Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit within you, whom you have from God, and that you are not your own? For you have been purchased at a price. Therefore glorify God in your body” (1 Cor 6: 18-20). <br />
<br />
Pornography: pervasive and destructive - In the climate of our society today, we recognize an alarming degradation of the gift of sexuality. Our society is inundated with sex and sensuality largely from the media. Films, television programs, and advertisements are loaded with sexual reference as well as the promotion of sexual promiscuity. <br />
<br />
One of the most pervasive and destructive problems in our society is pornography: graphic films, photographs, magazines, etc., which violate human dignity by the gross misuse of the gift of sexuality. The Catechism of the Catholic Church explains that “Pornography consists in removing real or simulated sexual acts from the intimacy of the partners, in order to display them deliberately to third parties. It offends against chastity because it perverts the conjugal act, the intimate giving of the spouses to each other. It does grave injury to the dignity of the participants (actors, vendors, the public), since each one becomes an object of base pleasure and illicit profit for others. It immerses all who are involved in the illusion of a fantasy world. It is a grave offense” (no. 2354). <br />
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Pornography is a cancer upon contemporary culture. Addictive in nature, many have been entangled in its lure and have caused great psychological and emotional harm to themselves and even to spouses and other family members. Furthermore, pornography frequently has been the underlying influence upon the behavior of rapists and sexual predators. Violence, sexual abuse, psychological trauma and ruptured relationships are the fruit of pornography, which, astonishingly, is a multi-billion dollar industry. <br />
<br />
The accessibility of pornography has increased in recent decades. Through home video entertainment, cable and satellite television, and especially through the Internet, people have easy access to pornography. It has been reported as well that a hand held device, similar to a palm pilot, is being marketed which will allow consumers constant and private access to pornography at any time and in any place. This is a great danger for children. <br />
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Internet pornography is especially insidious. The Internet has become such an important means of communication and information within most households, schools and businesses. However, through the Internet, access to and use of pornography has become even more widespread, addictive and harmful. Father Stephen Rosetti, a licensed psychologist who is President of Saint Luke Institute, in an article titled “Internet Pornography: Raising the Alarm,” wrote: “Internet porn is doubly powerful by combining the addictive nature of the Internet with the addictive nature of sex. … Internet pornography has a ‘Triple A Engine’ which fuels its use: Anonymity, Accessibility and Affordability. It appears anonymous because one can use it in the privacy of one’s office or room, and not visit an ‘adult’ bookstore. It is accessible 24 hours a day. And it is affordable: many sites are free although there are pay sites” (The Priest, February 2006). In the same article, Father Rosetti sites the tragic consequences of this type of addiction: divorce, loss of family, social life and employment. Minors also could have access to this corrupting influence. Furthermore, as Father Rosetti also notes, minors can become ensnared by Internet sexual predators. <br />
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Morality In Media - In opposition to the degrading and devastating impact of pornography, efforts have arisen to eliminate this terrible cancer from our society. Among these is Morality In Media, a non-profit organization based in New York. Morality In Media seeks to stop the pornography industry through constitutional means. <br />
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The quarterly newsletter issued by Morality In Media reports on the regular efforts to combat obscenity and provides testimony of those whose lives were damaged because of pornography. In the October/November/December 2005 newsletter, one man explained his addiction: “When I finished high school and was not so busy, I was drawn to pornographic videos that I could rent from stores in my hometown. The more I watched, the more I craved. What I did not realize was that day-by-day, I was creating an empty pit in my soul that could not be filled with anything that this world has to offer.” The testimony of that author captures succinctly the trap in which people fall when they become exposed to and addicted to pornography. <br />
<br />
I commend the efforts of Morality In Media and other organizations which, recognizing the positive value of television, film and the Internet, educate the public on the dangers of obscenity and pornography. I encourage all of the faithful, especially parents, to be conscious of the dangers of pornography and to ascertain that pornographic web sites are not accessible by children and youth. <br />
<br />
Our contemporary age has experienced a vast plunge into carnal satisfaction and sensuality. Yet we know that in contrast to these problems we proclaim a message of charity and chastity. Genuine love and respect for human dignity enables us to see beyond the allurements of what some may consider “beauty.” Rather, genuine beauty lies in the awe with which we view the act of sexual intimacy, a love that is both unitive and procreative, a love that mirrors the sacrificial love of Christ for His Church. In acknowledging the beauty of sexual intimacy in the permanent covenantal love of husband and wife, we come to understand how pornography is a grave offense against human dignity. The mystery and beauty of the human body, too, is a reflection of the mystery and beauty of the Creator. Conscious of this great gift which has been entrusted to each one of us, let us all live, love and act chastely, with deep reverence for the sacredness of sexuality that we may echo to our own age the profound sentiments of Saint Paul: “Glorify God in your body” (1 Cor 6: 20)! "June 8, 2006 <a href="http://www.cst-phl.com/main.html">http://www.cst-phl.com/main.html</a><br />
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(Gal 6:7 KJV) Be not deceived; God is not mocked: for whatsoever a man soweth, that shall he also reap. <br />
<br />
(Rom 12:1 KJV) I beseech you therefore, brethren, by the mercies of God, that ye present your bodies a living sacrifice, holy, acceptable unto God, which is your reasonable service.<br />
<br />
(Rom 12:2 KJV) And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.<br />
<br />
<a href="http://groups.msn.com/ImagesOfCanada/">http://groups.msn.com/ImagesOfCanada/</a>

   

I found the enemy and it is within most of us.. here too

(Rev 12:10 KJV) And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.

Amazing Fact, undeniable too, in over 50 years of the Christian churches Canada wide too attendance I never once heard a sermon that Canada should join the USA or that we Christians should not respect the Canadian Government..

but it is true that no one ever had preached a sermon against tax evasions.. for that is something many people still do Christian and non Christian, pastors and elders in Canada included.

(Mark 12:17 KJV) And Jesus answering said unto them, Render to Caesar the things that are Caesar's, and to God the things that are God's. And they marvelled at him.

(Rom 2:6 KJV) Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

   

yUP
YA sure do know how to appeal to us Lu

---
We have met the enemy and he is us
Pogo
A mind is a fire to be kindled, not a vessel to be filled.
Plutarch

   

ML with your thing about sexuality you should take a look at how hostility toward sex in the churches gives rise to pedophilia See<a href="http://plawiuk.blogspot.com/2006/01/christianity-is-child-abuse.html">http://plawiuk.blogspot.com/2006/01/christianity-is-child-abuse.html</a>

   

Do cooperatives compete against one another for market share?

Hey, if there's a system that preserves private property, keeps people (and governments) from intruding into other people's lives but that works without corporations, that's great! You're right in that corporations are simply another type of collective.

I'll take a system that I'm intrigued with but skeptical about (what you're proposing) over one that I despise (authoritarian big goverment socialism) anyday. Keep in mind that Ron Dart is falls more under the latter.

   

In a world where it is usual for medium-large scale enterprises to be cooperatives (and we do not yet have this state of affairs) market choice would exist to keep coops from becoming complacent or monopolistic. However, cut-throat competition, as we find in the US for example would not exist, as members would not want it, for one and it undermines the cooperative spirit. Think instead of a typical city "Antique Row" or Pender St. in Vancouver with all its book shops. They all compete in a sense, that is if one shop gave lousy services or charged too high a price it would feel the lash of competition but they are not out to destroy each other or become the Mega Antique Shop. Rather all these similar businesses create synergy and this benefits them all. I suggest the same would happen with coops. And you are right about Dart, he is certainly no libertarian.

   

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