Harper wants to name and shame 14 year-old car thieves
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Apollo @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 4:19 pm
I have yet to meet a victim of a serious crime that was not disgusted in our justice system.
It's easy for someone who has never been a victim to talk about compassion and second chances.
Que in Rev with a story about being victimized in 3.....2.......1......now.
Dayseed @ Mon Sep 29, 2008 6:45 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:
We aren't just talking about murder though, in fact the thread title names 14 year old car thieves.
Rhetorically employed by Hurley to attract interest. That wasn't the case at hand and the publishing came from the murder aspect.
$1:
Even within the realm of murder though, there's a huge range of variables, from manslaughter to premeditated murder, from vehicular homicide and criminal negligence causing death to killing an innocent bystander when you were trying to shoot somebody else.
No, I'm talking about murder. Section 212 of the Criminal Code. Since too many people have their own personal lexicon, I'm staying in the established definitions using the source in question. Manslaughter isn't murder. Vehicular homicide isn't murder. Criminal Negligence causing death isn't murder. Killing an innocent bystander while trying to shoot somebody else? Hey, THAT is murder.
$1:
Then there's motive. Self-defence is a pretty good justification, on the face of it. What if it's one gang member defending himself from another though? What if it's an ex-gang member defending a third party from being caught up in a gang?
Just saying, "We're talking about murder here," is a gross oversimplification.
Just saying, "We're talking about murder here," is a gross oversimplification.
And none of what you've offered in any way mitigates the need for retribution on behalf of the victim. You've conveniently ignored that whole half of the equation in favour of trying to rationalize, well, I'm not too sure what.
$1:
That's why judges need leeway in sentencing. These things are complex.
Which is why the Criminal Code assesses varying types of homicide. I don't expect Manslaughter to carry the same penalty as Murder.
$1:
Should some sentences be tougher? You bet, nobody is denying that. There should also be a lot more education and psychological treatment in prisons. It needs to be studied and determined by professionals though...not victims who are out for revenge, not the cheap sloganeering of the Conservative Party.
If you agree that sentences should be tougher, then why object to toughening the punishment by introducing publishing the name of teen murderers? Otherwise, I'm not sure what you're arguing. It seems you're trying to establish a blanket compassion for the poor murderers who just can't get a fair shake in life.
Reverend Blair @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:57 am
Publishing the names, or not publishing the names, seems pretty stupid to me. I don't see how publishing the names is going to act as a deterrent or give the families of victims some sense of retribution. I don't see how not publishing the names does anything but giving the families of the perpetrator temporary relief from the press.
How many adult murders, where the names are published, are there in Canada every week? How many of those names can you recall? Maybe if the crime directly affected you, but then you'd know the name anyway.
I'm not looking for a blanket compassion for murderers either. That's a ridiculous claim. I've said that tougher sentences are needed. What I am looking for is fact-based laws, not emotional appeals by the anti-science, anti-intellectual party. I am looking for something that actually changes the situation.
The need for retribution by victims varies widely, depending on the situation and the people involved. Consider the "Not in My Name" movement in the US...victim's families who oppose the death penalty for the killers of their loved ones. If we are going to give the victims say, then it should go both ways.
And this law is about far more than murder. It is about criminal negligence. It is about theft, especially auto theft. It is about selling drugs. Those things, and more, are all part of the Conservative proposal.
uwish @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:59 am
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:
Who will pay for it? Provinces won't.
the CPC will just divert the funds from the gun registry to this new bill.
and in the question of who will be paying, who will be paying for taliban Jacks 50 Billion dollars of socialist vote buy spree he is announcing???
Reverend Blair @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:44 am
The gun registry, according to the auditor general, was back on track and not costing very much at all. The initial costs aren't recoverable, so your theory is fantasy, uwish.
Layton's plan is solid. He has said where the money is coming from. He has also said that if the money isn't there, his programs will have to wait. Of course the corporate welfare boys are screaming like stuck pigs because Layton is threatening to take their trough away, but that's their problem.
Dayseed @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:38 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:
Publishing the names, or not publishing the names, seems pretty stupid to me. I don't see how publishing the names is going to act as a deterrent or give the families of victims some sense of retribution. I don't see how not publishing the names does anything but giving the families of the perpetrator temporary relief from the press.
If you want to know the facts of not publishing the names, that won't happen. See Hurley's disastrous missteps in addressing that. I think the retributive sense of publishing names comes from the idea that there is no longer a slant towards trying to rehabilitate the offender at the expense of the victim. I don't support a blanket clause of publishing the names, I can think of examples where that wouldn't work as intended. If the bullied snaps and kills the bully, rehabilitation is an option. Gangbanger shooting other gangbanger in the name of carving out drug turf, not so much.
$1:
How many adult murders, where the names are published, are there in Canada every week? How many of those names can you recall? Maybe if the crime directly affected you, but then you'd know the name anyway.
I can recall quite a few. Of course, the more sensational are easier to remember. But you're right, memory is recent and fades quickly. I certainly don't remember the name of every murder convict in Canada. In Toronto just recently, there was a manslaughter trial for one person who stabbed another person in a McDonald's drive-thru last summer. I totally don't recall the incident at all, let alone who was involved.
$1:
I'm not looking for a blanket compassion for murderers either. That's a ridiculous claim. I've said that tougher sentences are needed. What I am looking for is fact-based laws, not emotional appeals by the anti-science, anti-intellectual party. I am looking for something that actually changes the situation.
I suggested the blanket compassion angle because I didn't understand your end-goal with all of the calls for consideration of motives for murder. But, two things. Firstly, there simply isn't a record for the recidivism rate of juvenile murderers. It's old ground that Hurley mangled. Publishing the names would allow for tracking to find out what that rate is. Of course, you don't have anything to compare it to before we allowed name publishing, so... Secondly, justice isn't a science. It's man's hubris to impose fairness in society. Emotional appeals are a legitimate basis to temper laws. If we had strict reason, then theft would be theft, regardless of whether you're stealing bread for kicks or for sustanence. The bread-owner is still deprived of his goods in either case, so why make distinctions? Ah yes, the emotional component of compassion for the person driven to theft by necessity rather than theft by caprice.
$1:
The need for retribution by victims varies widely, depending on the situation and the people involved. Consider the "Not in My Name" movement in the US...victim's families who oppose the death penalty for the killers of their loved ones. If we are going to give the victims say, then it should go both ways.
If the family of a murder victim doesn't want the name of the murderer published so they can assist in his rehabilitation, they can fill their boots. No arguments here.
$1:
And this law is about far more than murder. It is about criminal negligence. It is about theft, especially auto theft. It is about selling drugs. Those things, and more, are all part of the Conservative proposal.
It's up to the Judge's discretion whether to publish the names or not. It's not an automatic thing. I've read the published proposed changes to the YCJA. They're over-due.
Wally_Sconce @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 2:47 pm
just a general comment about the original post...
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
fifeboy @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 5:52 pm
Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:
just a general comment about the original post...
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
Yep, and we beat our wives, were allowed to "shame" women who had been raped and we lived in what was the equivalent of Christian "sharia law." I think we can use the term "progress" to describe what we have now!
Wally_Sconce @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 7:31 pm
fifeboy fifeboy:
Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:
just a general comment about the original post...
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
Yep, and we beat our wives, were allowed to "shame" women who had been raped and we lived in what was the equivalent of Christian "sharia law." I think we can use the term "progress" to describe what we have now!
yes, I would use the word progress to discribe naming and shaming. the whole idea shows a strong sense of understanding 14 year olds. 14 year olds dont want to be shamed.
ziggy @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 8:12 pm
Aging_Redneck Aging_Redneck:
just a general comment about the original post...
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
in the old days, we used to hang 14 year old horse theives.
"naming and shaming" sounds quite reasonable to me.
Wow! Your older then me!
uwish @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:10 pm
Reverend Blair Reverend Blair:
The gun registry, according to the auditor general, was back on track and not costing very much at all. The initial costs aren't recoverable, so your theory is fantasy, uwish.
Layton's plan is solid. He has said where the money is coming from. He has also said that if the money isn't there, his programs will have to wait. Of course the corporate welfare boys are screaming like stuck pigs because Layton is threatening to take their trough away, but that's their problem.
Layton's plan is solid. He has said where the money is coming from. He has also said that if the money isn't there, his programs will have to wait. Of course the corporate welfare boys are screaming like stuck pigs because Layton is threatening to take their trough away, but that's their problem.
remember no communist nation has ever survived for long
or do you want Canada to be more like your hero's in China and North Korea?
Canukistan
almost there now, what is no property rights, and the charter of non rights and abuses.
won't be long before Canada may very well be the socialist utopia taliban jack is hoping for,
massive deficits
no military
no police
yoga only in jails with no more than 30 days in jail
all houses will be the same
all home owners will be required to board a homeless 'guest' for free
make sure your papers are in order comrade.
Reverend Blair @ Tue Sep 30, 2008 9:27 pm
Harper's dictatorial nature and methods have far more in common with China and North Korea than anything Layton ever suggested.
ziggy @ Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:14 am
Wally_Sconce @ Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:15 am
millions of law abiding canadians will have unregistered guns in their homes today.
And the Left Wing Church of Hate continues to fixate on us, instead of the criminals.
Like, how ignorant is that!!!
ziggy @ Wed Oct 01, 2008 6:21 am
Were on par with China and N. Korea today....the partisan hacks are getting pretty desperate!!!!! 
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