Aboriginal history must factor in sentences, Supreme Court s
raydan @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:28 am
In that case, the priority is to protect the public.
If every time someone drinks he becomes a danger to others, he has the choice of either not drinking or getting locked up. I don't care if he's native or not. Case closed.
Gunnair @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:30 am
raydan raydan:
In that case, the priority is to protect the public.
If every time someone drinks he becomes a danger to others, he has the choice of either not drinking or getting locked up. I don't care if he's native or not. Case closed.
If every time someone drinks he becomes a danger to others, he has the choice of either not drinking or getting locked up. I don't care if he's native or not. Case closed.
Agree though for an alcoholic, it's not a matter of choice - that's where I agree with Curt. However, public safety and justice needs to be achieved.
Curtman @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:43 am
Gunnair Gunnair:
That doesn't really answer the question. Fact is, in order to garner positive public opinion for approaches to justice for violent offenders that does not include imprisonment you have to satisfy the public's demand for safety and for justice.
http://www.publicsafety.gc.ca/res/cor/a ... 4-eng.aspx
$1:
....as Emile Durkheim and others have pointed out, it is only the mainstream processes of socialization (internalized morality and a sense of duty, the informal inducements and rewards of conformity, the practical and cultural networks of mutual expectation and interdependence etc.) that are able to promote proper conduct on a consistent and regular basis (Garland, 1991:158).
LESSONS LEARNED
* That it is critical for programming and other purposes to recognize differences among aboriginal and non-aboriginal offenders, and differences among aboriginal offenders themselves, such as exposure to and interest in spirituality and culture, background experiences, and what they perceive as their own problems and needs;
* To properly assess aboriginal offenders in relation to problems, needs and risk levels;
* To recognize the special needs of many aboriginal offenders, i.e. lack of education and contact with non-aboriginal people, and, therefore, to encourage involvement in programs by providing intensive pre-treatment programs;
* To ensure that aboriginal offenders have access to programs that meet their particular problems and needs;
* To select and train staff to work with aboriginal offenders who will understand the full range of their needs and realities, and will be respectful, supportive, encouraging and non-judgmental and develop a stable relationship with offenders;
* To monitor quality and delivery of correctional programs available to aboriginal offenders in the institution and in the community;
* To ensure that the principles of program effectiveness used in the general inmate population are applied to aboriginal offenders;
* To address each of the offender’s major problem areas in a integrated programming fashion;
* To fully inform and give aboriginal offenders the option of selecting the range of treatment programs available in the institution and/or community setting;
* To create a "therapeutic community" for aboriginal offenders in institutions and on the outside to provide them encouragement, friendship, identity and support;
* To recognize that offender reintegration in communities is dependent on community well-being, and that positive reintegration involves changing behaviour and identifying with people with pro-social attitudes;
* To emphasize the importance of addressing both urban and reserve community needs for purposes of crime prevention and reintegration;
* To encourage community development in aboriginal communities which takes into account the need for communities to feel safe as a prerequisite to reintegrating offenders;
* To ensure that a structure is created in community for offender upon release;
To encourage community involvement with returning offenders so families are not isolated;
* To assist families of offenders to change own behaviour.
LESSONS LEARNED
* That it is critical for programming and other purposes to recognize differences among aboriginal and non-aboriginal offenders, and differences among aboriginal offenders themselves, such as exposure to and interest in spirituality and culture, background experiences, and what they perceive as their own problems and needs;
* To properly assess aboriginal offenders in relation to problems, needs and risk levels;
* To recognize the special needs of many aboriginal offenders, i.e. lack of education and contact with non-aboriginal people, and, therefore, to encourage involvement in programs by providing intensive pre-treatment programs;
* To ensure that aboriginal offenders have access to programs that meet their particular problems and needs;
* To select and train staff to work with aboriginal offenders who will understand the full range of their needs and realities, and will be respectful, supportive, encouraging and non-judgmental and develop a stable relationship with offenders;
* To monitor quality and delivery of correctional programs available to aboriginal offenders in the institution and in the community;
* To ensure that the principles of program effectiveness used in the general inmate population are applied to aboriginal offenders;
* To address each of the offender’s major problem areas in a integrated programming fashion;
* To fully inform and give aboriginal offenders the option of selecting the range of treatment programs available in the institution and/or community setting;
* To create a "therapeutic community" for aboriginal offenders in institutions and on the outside to provide them encouragement, friendship, identity and support;
* To recognize that offender reintegration in communities is dependent on community well-being, and that positive reintegration involves changing behaviour and identifying with people with pro-social attitudes;
* To emphasize the importance of addressing both urban and reserve community needs for purposes of crime prevention and reintegration;
* To encourage community development in aboriginal communities which takes into account the need for communities to feel safe as a prerequisite to reintegrating offenders;
* To ensure that a structure is created in community for offender upon release;
To encourage community involvement with returning offenders so families are not isolated;
* To assist families of offenders to change own behaviour.
Gunnair @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 7:51 am
Curtman Curtman:
Gunnair Gunnair:
raydan raydan:
Can't help someone who doesn't want help...
That's true. And in this case, the issue isn't so much about how to assist those with substance abuse issues but more to do with two different approaches to ladling out justice - based purely on skin color.
It's not based on skin colour, its based community, and this:
$1:
"The circumstances of aboriginal offenders ... are unique and different from those of non-aboriginal offenders. There is something different about aboriginal offenders which may specifically make imprisonment a less appropriate or less useful sanction."
It doesnt say that skin colour is what makes that difference, only that a difference exists statistically.
They are being treated differently based upon their race. That can be read in two ways. One, they deserve to be treated differently from other races because they deserve more pity or they are being treated differently than other races because they aren't capable as a race to deal with these challenging social issues.
All races face these issues but giving them a by will not strengthen them it will simply feed the victim complex they have.
Curtman @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 8:02 am
Gunnair Gunnair:
They are being treated differently based upon their race. That can be read in two ways. One, they deserve to be treated differently from other races because they deserve more pity or they are being treated differently than other races because they aren't capable as a race to deal with these challenging social issues.
All races face these issues but giving them a by will not strengthen them it will simply feed the victim complex they have.
All races face these issues but giving them a by will not strengthen them it will simply feed the victim complex they have.
No they aren't. There is no "other" human race than Homo Sapien. The difference is cultural, and the Gladue principles are a recognition that many of the problems plaguing aboriginal communities (NOT race) were imposed on them by misguided attempts to socialize people, and that incarceration is not helping. It does not say that aboriginal offenders should not be imprisoned, it only says that imprisonment alone is not a useful strategy.
andyt @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:21 am
Curtman Curtman:
Gunnair Gunnair:
So, what alternative do you propose for a violent abuser?
Treatment. Restorative Justice is about trying to actually do something about the problem instead of repeating the endless cycle that happens now.
Why only for natives?
andyt @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:27 am
Curtman Curtman:
$1:
"The circumstances of aboriginal offenders ... are unique and different from those of non-aboriginal offenders. There is something different about aboriginal offenders which may specifically make imprisonment a less appropriate or less useful sanction."
It doesnt say that skin colour is what makes that difference, only that a difference exists statistically.
I'd really like to see some proof of that. My guess is that punitive prison accomplishes as little with white offenders as red ones, but at least they're locked away. If we're going to have restorative and rehabilitive justice, we should have it for all. We'd save money in the end, tho our thirst for vengeance would not be satisfied. But for many offenders, red, white and what have you, that form of justice would still need a significant term of incarceration, probably longer than we hand out now. Just that the incarceration wouldn't be about proving to the offender what scum s/he is, but helping them to find a better way to be - if they can do that. If they can't, they need to be locked up just for our own protection.
What I find funny is that when a red man kills or seriously harms another red man, the relatives of the victim howl for sever sentences the same as any other victim does. No more talk about special circumstances for the red offender then.
Curtman @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:43 am
andyt andyt:
Curtman Curtman:
Gunnair Gunnair:
So, what alternative do you propose for a violent abuser?
Treatment. Restorative Justice is about trying to actually do something about the problem instead of repeating the endless cycle that happens now.
Why only for natives?
It's not 'only for natives', but you cannot find another group in Canada that has suffered the same level of injustice.
Because currently an Aboriginal Canadian is more likely to go to jail than to graduate from high school. The system is broken.
$1:
"To be clear, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide and, of course, higher levels of incarceration for Aboriginal Peoples," Justice Louis LeBel wrote for the majority. "Failing to take these circumstances into account would violate the fundamental principle of sentencing."
andyt @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:49 am
You can't make up for injustice by adding further injustice. You're not healing the effects of colonialism by letting violent offenders walk free. I thought our justice system was based on individualism - ie the person that did the crime and their particular circumstances. There are non-Native people who have been brought up in atrocious conditions as bad as what any Native has suffered. Why are they not given special treatment? And there are Natives who have been brought up in comfortabe circumstances, why do they deserve special treatment? And of course none of them get treatment. Some just get punishment, the others a lot of smudging and bullshit and that's supposed to cure them.
Curtman @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 9:55 am
andyt andyt:
You can't make up for injustice by adding further injustice. You're not healing the effects of colonialism by letting violent offenders walk free. I thought our justice system was based on individualism - ie the person that did the crime and their particular circumstances. There are non-Native people who have been brought up in atrocious conditions as bad as what any Native has suffered. Why are they not given special treatment? And there are Natives who have been brought up in comfortabe circumstances, why do they deserve special treatment? And of course none of them get treatment. Some just get punishment, the others a lot of smudging and bullshit and that's supposed to cure them.
Nobody said that violent offenders should walk free. Throwing these two back in jail for non-violent offenses isn't going to help them, or society. They're addicts, and prison is a terrible place to treat addiction. The history of the individual's upbringing is what is considered. An aboriginal brought up in comfortable circumstances would have a hard time showing he should have special treatment in court.
andyt @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:06 am
Well, I may have misread, the story then. I thought they were violent criminals. So why would throwing non-Native non violent offenders back in jail help them or society?
Your last sentence, I think you're wrong. The justices said being native has to be considered. If it's about coming from bad circumstances, why would we need to consider being native, rather than the specific circumstances of the offender, whatever their race? Why didn't the justices say that?
And still, just giving somebody a lighter sentence because they had a tough upbringing accomplishes nothing. We need to give them the help they need to overcome that upbringing. And they guy who comes from a nice seeming, middle class family, who knows what horrors are hidden there we never hear about? He should also get help. Sometimes that help consists of just showing them they can't get a way with it - ie doing some time, most often it consists of more than that.
raydan @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:13 am
Curtman Curtman:
It's not 'only for natives', but you cannot find another group in Canada that has suffered the same level of injustice.
Because currently an Aboriginal Canadian is more likely to go to jail than to graduate from high school. The system is broken.
Because currently an Aboriginal Canadian is more likely to go to jail than to graduate from high school. The system is broken.
Like I said before, you can't help someone who doesn't want to be helped.
It seems (I wish I was wrong) that a lot of natives are perfectly content to play the victim card for as long as they can, because blaming someone else is a lot easier than actually doing something for yourself. How long do they actually get to play that card... is this a "forever" thing... or a "how much" thing.
Before anybody says I'm out to get the natives, I know a lot of white people who have played the victim card all their life too.
Curtman @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:16 am
$1:
“The failure to apply the Gladue principles in any case would also result in a sentence that is not fit and is not consistent with the fundamental principle of proportionality,” Mr. Justice Louis LeBel said for a 6-1 majority.
“Application of the Gladue principles is required in every case involving an aboriginal offender, including the breach of a long-term-supervision order,” he said. “A failure to do so constitutes an error justifying appellate intervention.”
...
“When sentencing an aboriginal offender, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement, and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide, and, of course, higher levels of incarceration for aboriginal peoples,” he said.
Judge LeBel said that the result will not be an automatic sentencing discount, but a genuine attempt by the courts to approach the person’s past sensitively “in each and every case regardless of the seriousness of the offence.”
“Application of the Gladue principles is required in every case involving an aboriginal offender, including the breach of a long-term-supervision order,” he said. “A failure to do so constitutes an error justifying appellate intervention.”
...
“When sentencing an aboriginal offender, courts must take judicial notice of such matters as the history of colonialism, displacement, and residential schools and how that history continues to translate into lower educational attainment, lower incomes, higher unemployment, higher rates of substance abuse and suicide, and, of course, higher levels of incarceration for aboriginal peoples,” he said.
Judge LeBel said that the result will not be an automatic sentencing discount, but a genuine attempt by the courts to approach the person’s past sensitively “in each and every case regardless of the seriousness of the offence.”
That's exactly what they did say.
andyt @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 10:18 am
But why only for natives? If it was an across the board thing, there would be no Gladue priciple - just the take the person's background into account priciple. Unlike you, I read this as that every native gets a softer deal, just because they're native.
EyeBrock @ Sat Mar 24, 2012 11:06 am
I'm sure there are plenty of our immigrant and refugee entrants that have suffered far worse injustices in the countries they fled than our present, well financed native population 'suffer' these days.
Will new Canadians have the injustices they suffered brought into sentencing? Or are they just the wrong colour or culture?
Injustices towards the aboriginal community such as residential schools etc were last current in the 1970's.
In this case the offender committed a violent sexual assault. Halving his sentence because of systemic issues is just utter bollocks.
We should just consider how the victim feels for once instead of the offender.
The SCC and all the other well paid social observers should meet and speak with the victims of violent crime before they excuse the inexcusable so quickly.