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ShepherdDog, if you get to the root of your smart investments you will see that there is the element I described to you earlier - charging people for services at rates much higher than cost. Any bank can get 20%+ on their credit card loans, making the poor people even poorer. I do not call this smart.

Envious? I do not know, I guess at time at can be a bit, but more than anything else I am saddened and frustrated by the established practices and lack of understanding. We all have flaws in our characters somewhere, that's because we are human, hopefully we still are.

No, I will not try to convert the wicked. They know what they are doing and they do not believe in hell.

   

I bet that ain't going to happen.

   

Wow 11 pages later...this thread still alive. I'm surprised. A slug-fest between Cougar and Gunnair.

This is pretty funny actually. 2 Extremes.

IMO being rich can be a stroke of luck (wealthy parents, good genes, good location, hand me down wealth), or hard work and self determination, most often times it's a combination of both. Being poor can simply mean being unlucky, making one or two wrong decision that can screw everything up (getting a girl pregnant, getting caught with recreational drugs and having no money for lawyers, helping a sick relative and dropping out of school to do so etc etc).

There are no extremes. It's why pure capitalism, and pure communism are both bound to fail miserably.

It is the job of governments to strike a fine balance between allowing wealth to be generated at the top, and for wealth to sometimes be forced to trickle to the bottom.

Societies that allow too much wealth to be hoarded by too few (whether it be their hard work, luck, race or religion that got them that wealth is irrelevant) tend to either fail, collapse, or become ungovernable until time such that the wealth flows through all its strata.

Case in point being Brazil, in the past 100 years has struggled with its army of illiterate slaves (at no fault of their own of course). The country was a mess, with huge swathes of no go zones for anyone with any wealth. The last 30 years Brazil has generated enough wealth at the bottom that these people are no longer a threat, but are now filling up factories and service centres as eager workers. But without Brazil's industrialist, none of this would be possible in the first place, who would build factories?

Point is, it's never a black and white, its a world of gray. Governments struggle to achieve this perfect fine balance.

The original article posted is relevant, poverty does cost all of society. In different ways yes, but the cost is real and tangible, often quantifiable in statistics.

   

"CommanderSock" wrote:

Don't be an idiot here. There is nothing extreme about emphasizing personnel responsibility and self reliance.

   

Since time immemorial the problem has been people are not responsible, sin. The majors religions all revolve about this. Without sin the world would not have any problems. But thanks for the sermon, especially the little "the market will provide" implication.

   

Not sure who you're addressing here.

   

We'll never eradicate income inequality, nor should be try. And income inequality is part of what plays out in status inequality, which is at the root of health and justice costs. But we can ameliorate poverty and can make sure that people at the lowest income levels at least have the resources to work their way out of it if possible, and live a half decent existence if not. That includes adequate housing and food, healthcare, education, etc. I don't believe in welfare, everybody who gets money should have to expend some kind of effort to get it, but then get enough to live on.

   

And at least this post talks about possible solutions, tho I don't think it's vision is broad or far enough. But a start:

http://www.canadaka.net/forums/improve-canada-f19/how-paying-people-s-way-out-of-poverty-can-help-us-all-t95912.html

   

You, actually. Lecturing about personnel responsibility is a little presumptuous. It's more in the league of a Jesus. You should know better.

   

To only emphasize personal responsibility and deny that there are systemic factors at play is indeed extreme. Even Steven Harper, at least how he's governed, doesn't seem to believe that. If it's all about personal responsibility and fuck you if you can't make it, what do we have any social spending for at all?

I do agree that businesses do have some responsibilities to their personnel tho.

   

Ahh, I see. Everyone instead, owes you a living.

Right.

   

You're talking out of your ass because career changes and moving were some of the sacrifices and hard decisions we made. If I didn't like my job, I went back to school. If I couldn't get a job where I wanted to live, I moved.

I chose to serve in the miliary before going to university, so I could afford to go without loans. I spent four years working in Somalia with an NGO, while in university. I've worked as part of a mine clearing operation in some other nasty places. I've had my co workers killed and maimed in that line of work, I've taught school in northern fly in reservations....yeah I'm a real hard core right winger with real cushy jobs. I think my world view is a tad more realistic than the one you've developed, watching the local news.

   

This is exactly what I have been doing and still after so many years in this country I hit the wall.

Eliminating poverty completely will be impossible, I agree. Providing a comfortable allowance to everyone out of work may encourage people leaving their jobs. The way things stand today, many barely make ends meet at $10/hour and there is little enjoyment of life. People will figure out right away that being unemployed is better than having to toil 40hours/week for the same money.

The question is why are the wages so low? why do we have companies still outsourcing labour and why is the governmnet still bringing people in.

If you put 300,000 people looking for work in a country where there is none, no wonder they are going to end up on the street. They would be only responsible for allowing to be misled.

   

To only emphasize systemic factors and deny that there are personal responsibility factors at play is indeed extreme.

   

Absolutely. Which plays out in part why some people do better than others. In part.

Doesn't change the thrust of the article. Some of you guys would cut off your nose to spite your face.

   

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