1 Oct 2017: Catalonia Independence or start of civil war?
Sunnyways @ Sat Oct 28, 2017 9:10 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
The EU strengthens independence or regional movements.
The powers that be in Europe and elsewhere are siding with Spain.
martin14 @ Mon Oct 30, 2017 12:48 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
It's not over.
Is it over now ?
Catalonia's president ’will ignore Madrid's court summons’ amid claims he will apply for asylum after fleeing to Brussels as thousands of supporters form human chain in his hometown
Carles Puigdemont fled to Brussels on Monday as prosecutors called for him to be charged with rebellion
Mr Puigdemont had threatened to arrive at work in defiance of Madrid, but instead ran for the border
He is now holed up in Belgium with five ministers and plans to apply for asylum after the country's foreign minister suggested it could be granted
Catalan speaker Carme Forcadell dissolved parliament before being told to hand herself over to police
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4x1T2pMzt
$1:
Former speaker Carme Forcadell, who is also facing charges alongside Mr Puigdemont, did arrive at her office in Barcelona but only to announce parliament would be dissolving.
The five ministers with Mr Puigdemont have been named as Meritxell Borras, the former minister for governance, public administration and housing, former health minister Toni Comin, former interior minister Joaquim Forn, former minister for employment Dolors Bassa and former agriculture, livestock, fisheries and food minister Meritxell Serret.
The five ministers with Mr Puigdemont have been named as Meritxell Borras, the former minister for governance, public administration and housing, former health minister Toni Comin, former interior minister Joaquim Forn, former minister for employment Dolors Bassa and former agriculture, livestock, fisheries and food minister Meritxell Serret.
BartSimpson @ Mon Oct 30, 2017 2:03 pm
This was a very disappointing episode in European history.
All that's happened here is that the Catalans have set themselves up to be even more tightly controlled by Madrid than ever before.
Sad.
Sunnyways @ Tue Oct 31, 2017 5:56 pm
martin14 martin14:
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
It's not over.
Is it over now ?
Catalonia's president ’will ignore Madrid's court summons’ amid claims he will apply for asylum after fleeing to Brussels as thousands of supporters form human chain in his hometown
Carles Puigdemont fled to Brussels on Monday as prosecutors called for him to be charged with rebellion
Mr Puigdemont had threatened to arrive at work in defiance of Madrid, but instead ran for the border
He is now holed up in Belgium with five ministers and plans to apply for asylum after the country's foreign minister suggested it could be granted
Catalan speaker Carme Forcadell dissolved parliament before being told to hand herself over to police
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4x1T2pMzt
$1:
Former speaker Carme Forcadell, who is also facing charges alongside Mr Puigdemont, did arrive at her office in Barcelona but only to announce parliament would be dissolving.
The five ministers with Mr Puigdemont have been named as Meritxell Borras, the former minister for governance, public administration and housing, former health minister Toni Comin, former interior minister Joaquim Forn, former minister for employment Dolors Bassa and former agriculture, livestock, fisheries and food minister Meritxell Serret.
The five ministers with Mr Puigdemont have been named as Meritxell Borras, the former minister for governance, public administration and housing, former health minister Toni Comin, former interior minister Joaquim Forn, former minister for employment Dolors Bassa and former agriculture, livestock, fisheries and food minister Meritxell Serret.
.
It's over for now but it will take generations to decide if it is really over. The federal government should have organized a plebiscite in Catalonia to decide this matter in a mature and peaceful way. They would probably have put the question to bed for a nice while if they had done that in the first place instead of dragging their feet interminably until the region could wait no longer.
martin14 @ Tue Oct 31, 2017 10:11 pm
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
It's over for now
Let's wait for the elections.
Meanwhile,
$1:
Ousted Catalan President Carles Puigdemont appeared to be on his way back to Barcelona on Tuesday night, less than 24 hours after he claimed he would only return from Brussels if a fair judicial process was guaranteed.
The controversial politician left his 70-euro-a-night (£61) hotel in the Belgian capital, with reports in Spain saying he was heading for the airport and expected to catch a flight back to the Catalan capital.
The controversial politician left his 70-euro-a-night (£61) hotel in the Belgian capital, with reports in Spain saying he was heading for the airport and expected to catch a flight back to the Catalan capital.
Lol, we spend a lot more than that for hotels when we have to go
to Brussels, he must be really poor now.
$1:
But early today there was confusion over the politician's whereabouts after he failed to arrive in Barcelona. Instead three of his ministers were on the plane that was expected to also be carrying him.
The flight took off from Brussels just hours after Puigdemont ruled out plans to claim political asylum in Belgium at a packed press conference - but said he couldn't say how long he would stay because he needed 'guarantees'.
Just as Puigdemont began his statement, Spain's constitutional court officially cancelled the Catalan declaration of independence.
Puigdemont, sacked as Catalan president last Friday as Madrid imposed direct rule on the region after its Parliament declared unilateral independence, had been warned he faced arrest and extradition if he failed to attend court in Madrid on Thursday.
He faces charges of rebellion and sedition and has has been summonsed for questioning at the Audiencia Nacional, Spain's Central Criminal Court, on Thursday and Friday.
More than a dozen former government colleagues also face questioning in Madrid.
Spanish prosecutors have said they want them to face charges of rebellion or sedition as well as embezzlement over an illegal October 1 referendum and the independence declaration.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4x9Xkxhsl
The flight took off from Brussels just hours after Puigdemont ruled out plans to claim political asylum in Belgium at a packed press conference - but said he couldn't say how long he would stay because he needed 'guarantees'.
Just as Puigdemont began his statement, Spain's constitutional court officially cancelled the Catalan declaration of independence.
Puigdemont, sacked as Catalan president last Friday as Madrid imposed direct rule on the region after its Parliament declared unilateral independence, had been warned he faced arrest and extradition if he failed to attend court in Madrid on Thursday.
He faces charges of rebellion and sedition and has has been summonsed for questioning at the Audiencia Nacional, Spain's Central Criminal Court, on Thursday and Friday.
More than a dozen former government colleagues also face questioning in Madrid.
Spanish prosecutors have said they want them to face charges of rebellion or sedition as well as embezzlement over an illegal October 1 referendum and the independence declaration.
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4x9Xkxhsl
So pudgymont is hiding again, but by Friday a warrant will be issued
for his arrest.
Finally, a country willing to charge people with sedition.
martin14 @ Wed Nov 01, 2017 12:07 pm
Ex-Catalan president 'is planning to copy Julian Assange and seek refuge in an embassy in Brussels to avoid charges in Spain'
Carles Puigdemont 'considering seeking safe haven in a sympathetic embassy'
Former Catalan president is staying in £61-a-night hotel in the Belgium capital
But he has been ordered to return to Madrid, Spain or face arrest and extradition
Currently in Belgium, he said he will not respond to court summons from Madrid
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4xCzcSoWO
I know, I know where he's going..........................................
The Venezuelan embassy.. 
martin14 @ Thu Nov 02, 2017 11:35 am
Warrants issued....
Eight sacked Catalan officials are JAILED as European arrest warrant is issued for ousted leader after he defied Spanish call to hand himself in
The Deputy First Minister and seven of his senior colleagues have been jailed
A European arrest warrant is expected to be issued against Carles Puigdemont
His lawyer in Belgium says 54-year-old intends to fight any extradition request
Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... z4xIiIIfhL
Sunnyways @ Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:14 pm
martin14 martin14:
So pudgymont is hiding again, but by Friday a warrant will be issued
for his arrest.
Finally, a country willing to charge people with sedition.
If he stays in Belgium, he is going to cause some headaches for that country. There'll be quite a few supporters of his 'sedition' in Flanders.
Sedition is a fairly archaic charge more suited to days of yore. What should the British have done with George Washington if they'd caught him?
BRAH @ Sat Nov 04, 2017 4:42 pm
$1:
Spain's 10 Catalan political prisoners as of last night. 8 cabinet ministers now added to 2 top civil society leaders jailed 2 weeks ago.
martin14 @ Sun Nov 05, 2017 12:52 am
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
martin14 martin14:
So pudgymont is hiding again, but by Friday a warrant will be issued
for his arrest.
Finally, a country willing to charge people with sedition.
If he stays in Belgium, he is going to cause some headaches for that country. There'll be quite a few supporters of his 'sedition' in Flanders.
Sedition is a fairly archaic charge more suited to days of yore. What should the British have done with George Washington if they'd caught him?
I think most governments these days are way too timid to bring charges like this,
preferring to just cower and do nothing. The Spanish have decide to play hardball.
And if the Brits had caught George ? William Wallace him of course.
BartSimpson @ Wed Nov 08, 2017 1:49 pm
Catalonian independence supporters went on a general strike today to protest Spanish rule
https://www.liveleak.com/view?i=221_1510169394
Martin15 @ Mon Oct 14, 2019 10:14 pm
2 years later, the answer is:
100 years in jail, bitches.
Protesters battle police as tens of thousands take to streets of Catalonia with flights at Barcelona airport disrupted after Spanish court jails nine independence leaders for total of almost 100 years
Police used batons against the protesters who converged on El Prat airport after a call by a grassroots group
Reports from the scene said police fired projectiles, with Spanish media adding they used foam-type bullets
A dozen people were treated for minor injuries at the protest site, Catalan emergency service SEM said today
Heavy prison sentences rallied the separatist cause, which is going through its most difficult period in years
Its most charismatic leaders are either behind bars or abroad, before Spain's November 10 general election
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/articl ... n-bid.html
Sunnyways @ Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:05 am
What a disgraceful outcome, reminiscent of Spain’s past. The fundamental question here is whether we are created for the benefit of the state or vice versa. All countries come and go but such changes have usually involved wars. That should not necessarily be the case. We need to devise a way of allowing viable regions to peacefully secede if that is the settled will of the majority there. The Scottish referendum pointed the way to a more civilized method of managing such transitions. Countries should not imprison regions against their will.
stratos @ Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:10 am
$1:
The Scottish teferendum pointed tne way to a more civilized method of managing such transitions. Countries should not imprison regions against their will.
How big of a region is needed if, for example, a reservation of first people demanded this would you allow it. There are States, Texas being on of them, that are seeming to lean to wanting to break away from the Union from time to time. A State in Mexico in the 90's I think, had a large section that with a Native (Indian) population who wanted to break away from Mexico.
Sunnyways @ Tue Oct 15, 2019 7:22 am
stratos stratos:
$1:
The Scottish teferendum pointed tne way to a more civilized method of managing such transitions. Countries should not imprison regions against their will.
How big of a region is needed if, for example, a reservation of first people demanded this would you allow it. There are States, Texas being on of them, that are seeming to lean to wanting to break away from the Union from time to time. A State in Mexico in the 90's I think, had a large section that with a Native (Indian) population who wanted to break away from Mexico.
Countries come in all shapes and sizes. There is a lower limit - one wouldn’t want to see individuals or streets becoming countries - which is why the word ‘viable’ is there. A region entirely contained within the mother state may not be viable, for example, and a history of a well-defined internal border and self-government at the provincial level would be desirable. The process to secede should be arduous, with a full discussion of the costs and risks given fair expression. Whether a simple majority à la Brexit would be enough is an open question. The point is we should not be so hysterical about such change. Borders are not sacred and countries are created for our convenience, to serve us. At some point, their extent will need to be adjusted. There should be peaceful mechanisms to achieve that. I don’t want to see Catalonia leave Spain or an explosion in the number of new states around the world but I do believe there should be a legal way out for those regions that deeply desire it.
I think that Mexican region was Chiapas. Texas was an independent republic for ten years and would certainly fulfill all the criteria above. It’s bigger than France.