Canada Kicks Ass
A Terrorist’s Dream, An American Nightmare (EMP)

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BartSimpson @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:15 pm

Scape Scape:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Setting it off on Wall Street in New York City would do far more damage than I think the little turds are capable of imagining.


Exactly, don't forget LA and Seattle the IT heartland. EMP there would have the amish laughing their heads off.


I can see the LA traffic jam now....

Image

   



Scape @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:23 pm

For that ALONE I wouldn't doubt the Irish are behind this and did the whole thing on a dare just to see the looks on their faces. Remember the last time Bush was kissin shamrocks?

   



Thematic-Device @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:25 pm

Scape Scape:
Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
As it stands scape, the only countries capable of launching ballistic missiles which have any accuracy are Russia and the US. Lots of people can launch inaccurate missiles, lots of people can launch satellites, the gap between the two is a large one.


If a missile was to be fired today, from any nation, it would be seen identifying that country to a counter attack and annihilation. However, satellites can be parked in orbit indefinitely and can be guided to a target the size of a continent with ease. A freighter could fire a scud just off shore of the US and by the time it detonated it would be all over.


Because Scud missiles are just so easy to load onto rusty freighters, not to mention getting a hold of them... Heck you can practically purchase them at CVS

$1:
Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
The next gap is getting a nuke, not only a nuke but a very modern one, which is light enough to be launched into space.


As I have shown several nations have plans on the moon,


plans and getting there are two completely different things. The US has plans for a missile shield, the US currently does not have one.

$1:
payload is not an issue.


I'm sure NASA will agree with you on that one, since after all radiation shielding would be no problem we'd simply use DU.

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The technology is out there although commercial private space flight would be limited to something like Virgin Galactic. This does not mean that a consortium of interests would not want an ace (or several hundred) in orbit. I hear France and Russia have plenty of rockets for hire.


And you've proven that anyone can send up unlimited payloads where? That Iran or North Korea have small nuclear devices?

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Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
A further gap for N.korea or Iran is to find people in their own country capable of producing such items. Look at china's attempts to integrate modern weaponry into their army, even with full schematics and support it hasn't been working.
Only one weapon needs to fire for this to work. Integration is a non-issue.

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Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
N.Korea, and Iran, don't have those and no one is sharing the information.


Wrong.


Wow an irrelevent link, your forte.

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Yes, if you get highly enriched uranium you can make a bomb, will it be a small one that can be shot into space? No.

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Bombs in orbit could masquerade as a dud satellite or communication drone to be called upon at a moment notice. That could be launched from most any nation perhaps even dupes at war/competing interests with each other because they are multi-national have no loyalty to any country they see the US economy as a pawn for profit, thus expendable. Why invade if they thought the US would not/could not react? The bombs in orbit could be put in position over a staggered time frame so no immediate target would present itself. This is the weaponization of space and the reality of it. Such a strike would shut down the US economy while other markets picked up the slack. Plausible?


Its a conspiracy theory capable of being acted upon by two nations, Russia and the US, no one else has the technology. Their may be people who can build rockets to deliver small, and light satellites, there are people who can make weapons, the two do not combine into your fanciful doomsday scenario.

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$1:
Al-Qaeda is known to have a fleet of freighters.

One of those freighters could easily be outfitted with a short- range ballistic missile capable of getting a nuclear weapon to almost any point in the airspace above our country.


Okay so first their going to get a nuke, then they're going to steal a ballistic missile, (thats really easy because I hear the countries that have them don't really want them anymore) but not only that their going to have a silo which can be mounted into a rusting hulk of a freighter! Because after all it required so little effort to design submarines to do that.

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Thousands of Scud missiles exist around the world, and they are said to cost less than $100,000 to purchase from willing suppliers like North Korea. (In December 2002, a North Korean ship was intercepted, temporarily, as it prepared to deliver twelve Scud missiles to Yemen.)


Hrmm I wonder why it was intercepted... Could it be that the US monitors shipments coming out of north korea?

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North Korea has also declared its willingness to sell nuclear weapons to terrorists.


And they don't have a sea route (US, S.Korea, and Japan make sure of that) and they don't have a land route (China makes sure of that)

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Iran has demonstrated it has the capability to launch a Scud missile from a vessel at sea.


So an iranian military vessel, carrying a nuclear warhead the quality of a russian or US design, sets sail, then sits of the US coast unhindered, and fires one of their notoriously poor missile designs (they tend to explode accidentally) over the united states. Sounds like a really plausible scenario to me.

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$1:
Ship-launched ballistic missiles have a special advantage. The "return address" of the attacker may be difficult to determine, especially if the missile is a generic Scud type weapon, found in many countries' arsenals.


Oh yeah because the US couldn't possibly find out who's ship it came from, or even, notice a Iranian Frigate heading towards the US... A US Coast Gaurd Cutter could take on all three of Irans frigates and win. You place too much credit in your doomsday scenarios.

   



Scape @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 2:42 pm

1st why would the US attack international freighter traffic in international waters?

2nd after they launch what good would sinking the freighters do then, the missiles are away.

3rd the target is above the US not the US itself. A German V2 and an egg timer could do the trick. It's not brain surgery we are talking here.

4th This link clearly shows that arms trade with 'rouge' states are clearly being done directly contradicting your baseless opinion of 'no one is sharing the information'.

5th Clearly you have never heard of an Arms Bazaar

$1:
The massive transfer of goods and equipment once under the exclusive control of national armies into private hands released into the market products ranging from rocket launchers to SCUD missiles and nuclear designs and machinery. Moreover, governments also boosted illicit trade by criminalizing new activities. File sharing through the internet, for example, is a newly illegal activity that has added millions to the ranks of illicit traders.

   



BartSimpson @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 3:59 pm

Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
Oh yeah because the US couldn't possibly find out who's ship it came from, or even, notice a Iranian Frigate heading towards the US... A US Coast Gaurd Cutter could take on all three of Irans frigates and win. You place too much credit in your doomsday scenarios.


Shit, we can't keep track of the millions of Mexicans walking across our borders. I wouldn't overestimate our capabilities too much.

   



BartSimpson @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:11 pm

IceOwl IceOwl:
Highly fucking unlikely.


Famous last words:

Admiral Charles Benson Admiral Charles Benson:
I cannot conceive of any use that the fleet will ever have for aircraft. The Navy doesn't need airplanes. Aviation is just a lot of noise.


This is the shit-for-brains who made it US Naval policy that Japan would never attack Pearl Harbor. (The Japanese, of course, didn't get that memo.)

Why?

Because it was highly fucking unlikely.

   



MassFab @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:29 pm

Most nations military are so "ADVANCED WITH ELECTRONICS THAT A WELL PLACED emp WOULD RENDER MOST ALL DEFENCES USELESS... AND WE WOULD BE REDUCED TO CONVENTIONAL WARFARE.... i THINK IT WAS eINSTIEN THAT SAID THE 3RD WORLD WAR WOULD BE FOUGHT WITH STICKS AND ROCKS.......

   



Thematic-Device @ Wed Dec 07, 2005 5:47 pm

Scape Scape:
1st why would the US attack international freighter traffic in international waters?


Gee... a north korean freighter leaves port... Considering 70% of their GDP is devoted to weapons manufacture, I'd say the US has a pretty good guess about whats on that ship.

$1:
2nd after they launch what good would sinking the freighters do then, the missiles are away.


If an Iranian frigate leaves port (especially with an escallation between the US and Iran) and heads for the states then you can be assured that there will be enough US vessels keeping an eye on it to sink it if it begins to act suspiciously.

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3rd the target is above the US not the US itself. A German V2 and an egg timer could do the trick. It's not brain surgery we are talking here.


Yes... I'm sure its that simple, those folks over at the manhattan project we're really just sipping expensive bourbon all day. And the arms race between the USSR and the US really was just a cover for them eating cavier and downing vodka... Heck long range ballistic missiles are absolutely no problem.

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4th This link clearly shows that arms trade with 'rouge' states are clearly being done directly contradicting your baseless opinion of 'no one is sharing the information'.


Arms trade (a general term) which can cover almost anything, and how to deliver large payloads sustainably into orbit, or how to make very small nuclear devices, or how to make very high yield weapons, are very different things.

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5th Clearly you have never heard of an Arms Bazaar
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The massive transfer of goods and equipment once under the exclusive control of national armies into private hands released into the market products ranging from rocket launchers to SCUD missiles and nuclear designs and machinery. Moreover, governments also boosted illicit trade by criminalizing new activities. File sharing through the internet, for example, is a newly illegal activity that has added millions to the ranks of illicit traders.


Considering the articles derision of the quality of all of the illegal goods take a guess at the quality of a 1950s scud missile...

   



Scape @ Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:09 am

BartSimpson BartSimpson:
IceOwl IceOwl:
Highly fucking unlikely.


Famous last words:

Admiral Charles Benson Admiral Charles Benson:
I cannot conceive of any use that the fleet will ever have for aircraft. The Navy doesn't need airplanes. Aviation is just a lot of noise.


This is the shit-for-brains who made it US Naval policy that Japan would never attack Pearl Harbor. (The Japanese, of course, didn't get that memo.)

Why?

Because it was highly fucking unlikely.


And yet we have our very own Admiral Charles Benson right here on CKA.:
Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
Scape Scape:
1st why would the US attack international freighter traffic in international waters?


Gee... a north korean freighter leaves port... Considering 70% of their GDP is devoted to weapons manufacture, I'd say the US has a pretty good guess about whats on that ship.


$1:
2nd after they launch what good would sinking the freighters do then, the missiles are away.


Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
If an Iranian frigate leaves port (especially with an escallation between the US and Iran) and heads for the states then you can be assured that there will be enough US vessels keeping an eye on it to sink it if it begins to act suspiciously.


Did you miss the part about the freighters being al-Qaeda? Not Iranian, not North Korean. They could be Canadian, Argentina, German, Mexican... How do you think cocaine and heroin gets to the US by the tonne?

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5th Clearly you have never heard of an Arms Bazaar


Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
Considering the articles derision of the quality of all of the illegal goods take a guess at the quality of a 1950s scud missile...


I have no doubt that there are sub quality products in contraband but once again you fail to understand the nature or the volume of the contraband and the fact it is so readily accessible to so many who have an axe to grind. A rich man will sell the rope that hangs him in this case that rope is arrogance.

The RIAA mentality prevalent in the US such as litigation to monopolize and then price fixing sub-par products like CDs for 20$ for 'royalties' or Microsoft (Windows/Explorer), and the FCC (frequency not shared to EMT workers because there was too much money to be made) has made the US 'quality' just as suspect.

The fact is ALL traffic is monitored air, sea and by land but you just can't be everywhere all the time and the best place to hide something is in plain sight.

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THREE ILLUSIONS

Yet in the face of all the evidence, at least three grand illusions persist in the way we -- the public and the politicians in whom we place our trust -- address global illicit trade.

First is the illusion that there is nothing new. Illicit trade is age-old, a continuous facet and side effect of market economies or of commerce in general. Illicit trade's ancestor, smuggling, traces back to ancient times, and many a "thieves' market" survives in the world's commercial hubs. Therefore, skeptics would argue that since smuggling has always been more a nuisance than a scourge, it is a threat we can learn to live with as we have always done.

But this skepticism ignores the important transformations of the 1990s. Changes in political and economic life, along with revolutionary technologies in the hands of civilians, have dissolved the sealants that governments traditionally relied on to secure their national borders. At the same time, the market-oriented economic reforms that swept the world in the 1990s boosted incentives to break through these sealants -- legally or otherwise. Not only did the hold of governments on borders weaken, but the reforms amplified the rewards awaiting those who were prepared to break the rules.

Technology enlarged the market, not just geographically by lowering transport costs but also by making possible the trade in a whole range of goods that didn't exist before, such as pirated software or genetically modified marijuana. New technologies also made it possible to trade internationally products that in the past were hard or impossible to transport or hold in "inventory" -- human kidneys, for instance. Markets, of course, were also enlarged when governments deregulated previously closed or tightly controlled economies and allowed foreigners to visit, trade, and invest more freely.

The massive transfer of goods and equipment once under the exclusive control of national armies into private hands released into the market products ranging from rocket launchers to SCUD missiles and nuclear designs and machinery. Moreover, governments also boosted illicit trade by criminalizing new activities. File sharing through the internet, for example, is a newly illegal activity that has added millions to the ranks of illicit traders.

A clue to the explosion of illicit trade is the relentless rise of money laundering. Eventually, every illicit line of business generates money that needs to be laundered. And there is ample evidence that despite all the precautions and enforcement measures now in place, there is more and more dirty money floating in the international financial system now than ever before.

Yet until now, with the exception of narcotics, illicit trade has simply not been a priority in international law and treaty making, or in international police work and cooperative law enforcement. The United Nations devised common language to describe it only in the year 2000, and most countries have a long way to go in adapting their laws to international standards, let alone enforcing them. It took the advent of software piracy and the birth of "intellectual property crime" to add a fillip to international efforts against counterfeiting. And trafficking in persons -- the most morally outrageous of all the forms of illicit trade -- was defined in the 1990s only by academics and activists, and made the subject of a specific, comprehensive law in the United States in 2000. (Only seventeen other countries have done the same.)

The second illusion is that illicit trade is just about crime. It is true that criminal activities surged and became global in the 1990s. But thinking about international illicit trade as just another manifestation of criminal behavior misses a larger, more consequential point. Global criminal activities are transforming the international system, upending the rules, creating new players, and reconfiguring power in international politics and economics. The United States attacked Iraq because it feared that Saddam Hussein had acquired weapons of mass destruction. But during the same time a stealthy network led by A. Q. Khan, a Pakistani engineer, was profiting by selling nuclear bomb-making technology to whoever could pay for it.

Throughout the twentieth century, to the extent that governments paid attention to illicit trade at all, they framed it -- to their public, and to themselves -- as the work of criminal organizations. Consciously or not, investigators around the world took the model of the American and Sicilian Mafia as their blueprint. Propelled by this mind-set, the search for traffickers -- almost always in drugs -- led to what investigators thought could be only corporate-like organizations: structured, disciplined, and hierarchical. The Colombian cartels, Chinese tongs, Hong Kong triads, Japanese yakuza, and eventually after 1989 the Russian mafiya were all approached this way: first as criminal organizations, only later as traders. In most countries, the laws employed to prosecute illicit traders remain those born of the fight against organized crime, like the racketeering and corrupt organizations (RICO) statutes in the United States.

Only recently has this mind-set began to shift. Thanks to al-Qaeda the world now knows what a network of highly motivated individuals owing allegiance to no nation and empowered by globalization can do. The problem is that the world still thinks of these networks mostly in terms of terrorism. Yet, as the pages ahead show, profit can be as powerful a motivator as God. Networks of stateless traders in illicit goods are changing the world as much as terrorists are -- probably more. But a world obsessed with terrorists has not yet taken notice.

The third illusion is the idea that illicit trade is an "underground" phenomenon. Even accepting that trafficking has grown in volume and complexity, many -- not least politicians -- seek to relegate it to a different world than that of ordinary, honest citizens and constituents. The language we use to describe illicit trade and to frame our efforts to contain it betrays the enduring power of this illusion. The word offshore -- as in offshore finance -- vividly captures this sense that illicit trade takes place somewhere else. So does black market, or the supposedly clearly distinct clean and dirty money. All signify a clarity, an ability to draw moral and economic lines and patrol their boundaries that is confounded in practice. This is the most dangerous of all these illusions, because it treads on moral grounds and arguably lulls citizens -- and hence public opinion -- into a sense of heightened righteousness and false security.

This point is not about moral relativism. A thief is a thief. But how do you describe a woman who manages to provide some material well-being to her destitute family in Albania or Nigeria by entering another country illegally and working the streets as a prostitute or as a peddler of counterfeited goods? What about bankers in Manhattan or London who take home big year-end bonuses as a reward for having stocked their bank's vaults with the deposits of "high-net worth individuals" whose only known job has been with a government in another country? Many American high-schoolers can procure a joint of marijuana more easily than they can purchase a bottle of vodka or a pack of cigarettes, and they know they don't really run any major risk in doing so. Meanwhile honest Colombian judges or police officers are routinely gunned down in a war on drugs that the U.S. government funds to the tune of $40 billion a year. These are not just infuriating contradictions, unfair double standards, or interesting paradoxes. They are powerful clues about how age-old human mores have acquired new hues.

...

Therefore not only are illicit networks tightly intertwined with licit private sector activities, but they are also deeply embedded within the public sector and the political system. And once they have spread into licit private corporations, political parties, parliaments, local governments, media groups, the courts, the military, and the nonprofit sector, trafficking networks assume a powerful -- and in some countries unrivalled -- influence on matters of state.

   



Thematic-Device @ Thu Dec 08, 2005 10:41 am

Scape Scape:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
IceOwl IceOwl:
Highly fucking unlikely.


Famous last words:

Admiral Charles Benson Admiral Charles Benson:
I cannot conceive of any use that the fleet will ever have for aircraft. The Navy doesn't need airplanes. Aviation is just a lot of noise.


This is the shit-for-brains who made it US Naval policy that Japan would never attack Pearl Harbor. (The Japanese, of course, didn't get that memo.)

Why?

Because it was highly fucking unlikely.


And yet we have our very own Admiral Charles Benson right here on CKA.:
Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
Scape Scape:
1st why would the US attack international freighter traffic in international waters?


Gee... a north korean freighter leaves port... Considering 70% of their GDP is devoted to weapons manufacture, I'd say the US has a pretty good guess about whats on that ship.


$1:
2nd after they launch what good would sinking the freighters do then, the missiles are away.


Thematic-Device Thematic-Device:
If an Iranian frigate leaves port (especially with an escallation between the US and Iran) and heads for the states then you can be assured that there will be enough US vessels keeping an eye on it to sink it if it begins to act suspiciously.


Did you miss the part about the freighters being al-Qaeda?


Did Al Qaeda demonstrate a capability to fire a scud missile from a surface ship? Did Iran demonstrate a capability to fire from a decrepit freighter? No. So my estimation was correct.

$1:
Not Iranian, not North Korean. They could be Canadian, Argentina, German, Mexican... How do you think cocaine and heroin gets to the US by the tonne?


Heroin doesn't require a massive launch frame and a heavy amount of reinforcement. Heroin doesn't require radiation shielding, and heroin does not need to traverse the pacific ocean from North Korea.

$1:
The RIAA mentality prevalent in the US such as litigation to monopolize and then price fixing sub-par products like CDs for 20$ for 'royalties' or Microsoft (Windows/Explorer), and the FCC (frequency not shared to EMT workers because there was too much money to be made) has made the US 'quality' just as suspect.


Oh yeah, because if sony makes crap CDs the use must be unable to make defense equipment... Or because sony made crap cds it must mean the Iran has nukes! Wonderful logic there buddy.

$1:
The fact is ALL traffic is monitored air, sea and by land but you just can't be everywhere all the time and the best place to hide something is in plain sight[/url][/i].


A US and European weapons show does not in anyway allow North Korea to sell a nuclear weapon to iran, nor does it allow Iran, to then take that weapon and load it into a scud missile on a rusty decrepit freighter Incapable of making it to the next port much less to the pacific coast of north america.

$1:
The massive transfer of goods and equipment once under the exclusive control of national armies into private hands released into the market products ranging from rocket launchers to SCUD missiles and nuclear designs and machinery. Moreover, governments also boosted illicit trade by criminalizing new activities. File sharing through the internet, for example, is a newly illegal activity that has added millions to the ranks of illicit traders.


Ahh yes again with the quote that somehow because people are stealing music, we will have scud missiles across the world...

Narcotics, MP3s, and Scud Missiles are all very different markets. To claim that an increase in some underground activity, means that now anyone can get a hold of a scud missile is ludicrous.

   



Scape @ Thu Dec 08, 2005 2:49 pm

If you were to make al-Qaeda a politically neutral organization it would be a syndicate this is why if Usama is dead or not the organization would still exist and why hundreds of al-Qaeda members have been killed and captured and yet thousands step forward to replace them. What makes it a political entity is Islam but to say that they do not have access to the same markets open to contraband smugglers and then to say that arms bazaars and narcotic markets are fundamentally different in nature flimsy logic at best. They DO have access to narcotics already, opium is a major money maker for terrorists organizations and that money IS being used to buy weapons and also is being laundered to buy legitimate assets like freighters.

Everyone thought that box cutters were to open boxes not attack a superpower and it is this out of the box thinking that is the strength al-Qaeda. The same principal behind what makes a genius is what will make future attacks on the US by al-Qaeda possible.

   



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