Counter point to the Goracle
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 8:37 am
I don't think Kyoto is dead. It should be. The fact is the world is heading towards a pattern of less cooperation, not more. We're heading for more wars and confllicts. Intractable global environmetnal problems require cooperation to resolve; I certainly can't see that happening.
sasquatch2 @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:40 pm
The mere fact that you post...
$1:
Zipperfish
I don't think Kyoto is dead. It should be.
I don't think Kyoto is dead. It should be.
The KYOTO Protocols were the key component of the AGW thing. The AGW thing had no other purpose other than justify KYOTO, which has failed in REALPOLITIK.
KYOTO is dying with a whimper. This has discredited both "the science" and the political agenda which will be difficult and possibly impossible to revive.
Scrappy @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 12:48 pm
I don't think the issue of global warming is going to die, we are poisoning this planet there is no denying that "Fact" but what are we going to do about is an issue I'd like to see movement on. The fanatical enviro terrorist have done alot of damage by their millitant views once we ignore them and then we can deal pollution and the consistant poisoning of this planet.
sasquatch2 @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 1:37 pm
Global polution is a genuine phenomina.
Efforts to deal with the real pollution have been shoved aside by this AGW labelling of a benigh element CO2 as a pollutant.
The sky over INDIA/CHINA bear witness to real polution---CO< NOX, sulphur compounds and just plain soot.
The 3rd world is happilly razing the rain forests for fuel and lumber to supply the polluters...
CO2 was selected as a pollutant, for the simple reason that no energy results without it and western civilization is totally reliant upon energy. KYOTO was about social engineering on a Global scale.
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 2:55 pm
sasquatch2 sasquatch2:
The mere fact that you post...
The KYOTO Protocols were the key component of the AGW thing. The AGW thing had no other purpose other than justify KYOTO, which has failed in REALPOLITIK.
KYOTO is dying with a whimper. This has discredited both "the science" and the political agenda which will be difficult and possibly impossible to revive.
$1:
Zipperfish
I don't think Kyoto is dead. It should be.
I don't think Kyoto is dead. It should be.
The KYOTO Protocols were the key component of the AGW thing. The AGW thing had no other purpose other than justify KYOTO, which has failed in REALPOLITIK.
KYOTO is dying with a whimper. This has discredited both "the science" and the political agenda which will be difficult and possibly impossible to revive.
Yeah, ya see, when you print stuff like that, you juts relegate yourself to wingnut status. Try a little less frothing at the mouth, a little more actual logic, and you might get somewhere with that.
BartSimpson @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:08 pm
For a truly devastating condemnation of global warming alarmists complete with extensive documentation and extensive scientific reference I highly recommend this book:
http://www.amazon.com/Politically-Incor ... 277&sr=8-1
The Politically Incorrect Guide to Global Warming (and Environmentalism)
$1:
Editorial Reviews
Book Description
This latest installment in the P.I.G. series provides a provocative, entertaining, and well-documented expose of some of the most shamelessly politicized pseudo-science we are likely to see in our relatively cool lifetimes.
From the Inside Flap
"Global warming":
the Left's last best chance to gain a stranglehold on our political system and economy
For decades, environmentalism has been the Left's best excuse for increasing government control over our actions in ways both large and small. It's for Mother Earth! It's for the children! It's for the whales! But until now, the doomsday-scenario environmental scares they've trumped up haven't been large enough to justify the lifestyle restrictions they want to impose. With global warming, however, greenhouse gasbags can argue that auto emissions in Ohio threaten people in Paris, and that only "global governance" (Jacques Chirac's words) can tackle such problems.
Now, in The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Global Warming and Environmentalism, Christopher C. Horner tears the cover off the Left's manipulation of environmental issues for political purposes--and lays out incontrovertible evidence for the fact that catastrophic man-made global warming is just more Chicken-Little hysteria, not actual science. He explains why, although Al Gore and his cronies among the media elites and UN globalists endlessly bleat that "global warming" is an unprecedented global crisis, they really think of it as a dream come true. It's the ideal scare campaign for those who hate capitalism and love big government. For, as Horner explains, if global warming really were as bad as the Leftist doomsayers insist it is, then no policy imaginable could "solve" it. According to the logic of the greens' own numbers, no matter how much we sacrifice there would still be more to do. That makes global warming the bottomless well of excuses for the relentless growth of big government.
Horner (an attorney and senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute) reveals the full anti-American, anti-capitalist, and anti-human agenda of today's environmentalists, dubbing them "green on the outside, red to the core." He details how they use strong-arm legal tactics--and worse--against those who dare to point out the weakness of their arguments for global warming. Along the way, he explodes ten top global warming myths, carefully examining the evidence to determine how much warming there really is and what is actually causing it. He exposes the lies that the environmental lobby routinely tells to make its case; the ways in which it is trying to impose initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol on an unwilling American public; and much more--including the green lobby's favorite politicians (John Kerry, John McCain, Joe Lieberman, and others).
It's time to stand up to the environmentalist industry and insist: human beings are not the enemy. In breezy, light-hearted, and always entertaining fashion, The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Global Warming and Environmentalism gives you the facts you need to do so.
Book Description
This latest installment in the P.I.G. series provides a provocative, entertaining, and well-documented expose of some of the most shamelessly politicized pseudo-science we are likely to see in our relatively cool lifetimes.
From the Inside Flap
"Global warming":
the Left's last best chance to gain a stranglehold on our political system and economy
For decades, environmentalism has been the Left's best excuse for increasing government control over our actions in ways both large and small. It's for Mother Earth! It's for the children! It's for the whales! But until now, the doomsday-scenario environmental scares they've trumped up haven't been large enough to justify the lifestyle restrictions they want to impose. With global warming, however, greenhouse gasbags can argue that auto emissions in Ohio threaten people in Paris, and that only "global governance" (Jacques Chirac's words) can tackle such problems.
Now, in The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Global Warming and Environmentalism, Christopher C. Horner tears the cover off the Left's manipulation of environmental issues for political purposes--and lays out incontrovertible evidence for the fact that catastrophic man-made global warming is just more Chicken-Little hysteria, not actual science. He explains why, although Al Gore and his cronies among the media elites and UN globalists endlessly bleat that "global warming" is an unprecedented global crisis, they really think of it as a dream come true. It's the ideal scare campaign for those who hate capitalism and love big government. For, as Horner explains, if global warming really were as bad as the Leftist doomsayers insist it is, then no policy imaginable could "solve" it. According to the logic of the greens' own numbers, no matter how much we sacrifice there would still be more to do. That makes global warming the bottomless well of excuses for the relentless growth of big government.
Horner (an attorney and senior fellow at the Competitive Enterprise Institute) reveals the full anti-American, anti-capitalist, and anti-human agenda of today's environmentalists, dubbing them "green on the outside, red to the core." He details how they use strong-arm legal tactics--and worse--against those who dare to point out the weakness of their arguments for global warming. Along the way, he explodes ten top global warming myths, carefully examining the evidence to determine how much warming there really is and what is actually causing it. He exposes the lies that the environmental lobby routinely tells to make its case; the ways in which it is trying to impose initiatives such as the Kyoto Protocol on an unwilling American public; and much more--including the green lobby's favorite politicians (John Kerry, John McCain, Joe Lieberman, and others).
It's time to stand up to the environmentalist industry and insist: human beings are not the enemy. In breezy, light-hearted, and always entertaining fashion, The Politically Incorrect Guide(tm) to Global Warming and Environmentalism gives you the facts you need to do so.
I am about halfway through the book and when I finish with it I will be using it as my faithful reference work to debunk the global warming worshippers on this site.
BartSimpson @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:16 pm
Scrappy Scrappy:
I don't think the issue of global warming is going to die, we are poisoning this planet there is no denying that
Global warming and pollution are separate issues.
I support the initiatives that have reduced pollution over the past so many years.
In California, with now 35 million people, we have less than one fourth of the pollution the state had forty years ago when we only had eight million people in the state.
LA and the San Francisco Bay Area have fewer unhealthy air days due to particulates in 2006 even as compared to 1958.
Ridding ourselves of pollution is just plain sensible.
Completely sabotaging industrial civilization over the politically motivated and greed motivated global warming catastrophism is asinine.
BartSimpson @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:29 pm
sasquatch2 sasquatch2:
Global polution is a genuine phenomina.
Efforts to deal with the real pollution have been shoved aside by this AGW labelling of a benigh element CO2 as a pollutant.
The sky over INDIA/CHINA bear witness to real polution---CO< NOX, sulphur compounds and just plain soot.
The 3rd world is happilly razing the rain forests for fuel and lumber to supply the polluters...
CO2 was selected as a pollutant, for the simple reason that no energy results without it and western civilization is totally reliant upon energy. KYOTO was about social engineering on a Global scale.
Efforts to deal with the real pollution have been shoved aside by this AGW labelling of a benigh element CO2 as a pollutant.
The sky over INDIA/CHINA bear witness to real polution---CO< NOX, sulphur compounds and just plain soot.
The 3rd world is happilly razing the rain forests for fuel and lumber to supply the polluters...
CO2 was selected as a pollutant, for the simple reason that no energy results without it and western civilization is totally reliant upon energy. KYOTO was about social engineering on a Global scale.
Agreed. Proof of that is the authors of the Kyoto Treaty refused to allow carbon offsets or carbon sinks such as forests to offset carbon production. Had they done this the USA would've signed on and launched a forestation effort of idled farmland.
Oh, did I mention that the carbon sink using idled farmland was Bill Clinton's idea?
And because of this the US Senate, with Al Gore presiding as President Pro Tempore, voted unanimously AGAINST Kyoto?
And Gore, ever the shameless hypocrite, endorsed Ross Gelbspan’s book “Boiling Point.” which lambastes the Bush Administration for not ratifying Kyoto when in fact t was the Clinton Administration that failed to fool anyone in the US Senate into ratifying it.
John Kerry, Teddy Kennedy, Chuck Schumer, Barbara Boxer, Dianne Feinstein, all of them left-wing liberals and all of them voted against Kyoto because Kyoto doesn't do jack diddly squat about pollution or global warming and it was too stupid and senseless even for the likes of them.
Kyoto is an attack on Western industrialized nations. Nothing more and nothing less.
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 3:29 pm
Bart Bart:
For a truly devastating condemnation of global warming alarmists complete with extensive documentation and extensive scientific reference I highly recommend this book...
And you call us alarmist? Come on--take a gander at your psostion here. AGW is a conspiracy by the left to crush America and capitalism, to get a "stranglehold" on the economy? mm-hmmm...
Another clever tack is to kind of turn the table and try to accuse those who actually do the science and trust the science as religious zealots. In actual fact, religious zealots are those that accept things on faith despite clear evidence to the contrary in reality. That would be the AGW sceptics.
The science is quite clear--anthropogenic emissions of carbon dioxide are likely a cause of the current warming of the planet. And yet the AGW sceptics would have us believe that the majority of the world's climate scientists have taken upon themselves, en masse, to lie to humanity for research dollars in a giant conspiracy engineered by the America-hating left. Now, who are the idealogues in this picture?
And the Competitive Enterprise Institute has an obvious axe to grind, unlike scientists conduting the quotidian work on the science. CEI's position on climate change was determined long before they even read a page of science on it. Again--that's textbook idealogue.
sasquatch2 @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:11 pm
Just as AGW theory is the linchpin of KYOTO....
Scientific Consensus infavour of AGW is the lynchpin of AGW theory.....
The weak point in the AGW/KYOTO thing is not the fact that it is a left-wing conspiracy is the fictious consensus of science in favour of AGW. The IPCC despite carefully selecting only supporters for it's roster of scientist has been unable to maintain control over even that small sampling....how many IPCC report signataries have denounced the report as edited and modified.
The is no wide spread consensus of scientists except in the propaganda the AGW alarmists spew.....
The consensus is much like the hockey stick a contrived, invention.
This is an academic argument at this point in that the first world has de facto rejected KYOTO......
BartSimpson @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 6:18 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
And you call us alarmist? Come on--take a gander at your psostion here. AGW is a conspiracy by the left to crush America and capitalism, to get a "stranglehold" on the economy?
I'm sorry, where did I miss the proposed controls for CO2 emissions by China, India, & etc. or were they just aimed mostly at America and capitalism? Mmmmm?
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 9:50 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
And you call us alarmist? Come on--take a gander at your psostion here. AGW is a conspiracy by the left to crush America and capitalism, to get a "stranglehold" on the economy?
I'm sorry, where did I miss the proposed controls for CO2 emissions by China, India, & etc. or were they just aimed mostly at America and capitalism? Mmmmm?
Don't look at me to defend Kyoto--I never liked it. The point is that the AGW sceptics just love to call those of us that actually listen to the science "alarmist" while at the same time rolling out this elaborate conspiracy theories involving the left trying to crush capitalism and/or America.
BartSimpson @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:02 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
And you call us alarmist? Come on--take a gander at your psostion here. AGW is a conspiracy by the left to crush America and capitalism, to get a "stranglehold" on the economy?
I'm sorry, where did I miss the proposed controls for CO2 emissions by China, India, & etc. or were they just aimed mostly at America and capitalism? Mmmmm?
Don't look at me to defend Kyoto--I never liked it. The point is that the AGW sceptics just love to call those of us that actually listen to the science "alarmist" while at the same time rolling out this elaborate conspiracy theories involving the left trying to crush capitalism and/or America.
And, one more time....where did I miss the proposed controls for CO2 emissions by China, India, & etc. or were they just aimed mostly at America and capitalism?
Kyoto is PROOF of a political slant against the West and capitalism because it doesn't do diddly about Communist pollution and, for that matter, it doesn't do diddly at all about pollution.
It is just an attack on our economies is all it is.
BartSimpson @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:06 pm
sasquatch2 sasquatch2:
Just as AGW theory is the linchpin of KYOTO....
Scientific Consensus infavour of AGW is the lynchpin of AGW theory.....
The weak point in the AGW/KYOTO thing is not the fact that it is a left-wing conspiracy is the fictious consensus of science in favour of AGW. The IPCC despite carefully selecting only supporters for it's roster of scientist has been unable to maintain control over even that small sampling....how many IPCC report signataries have denounced the report as edited and modified.
The is no wide spread consensus of scientists except in the propaganda the AGW alarmists spew.....
The consensus is much like the hockey stick a contrived, invention.
This is an academic argument at this point in that the first world has de facto rejected KYOTO......
Scientific Consensus infavour of AGW is the lynchpin of AGW theory.....
The weak point in the AGW/KYOTO thing is not the fact that it is a left-wing conspiracy is the fictious consensus of science in favour of AGW. The IPCC despite carefully selecting only supporters for it's roster of scientist has been unable to maintain control over even that small sampling....how many IPCC report signataries have denounced the report as edited and modified.
The is no wide spread consensus of scientists except in the propaganda the AGW alarmists spew.....
The consensus is much like the hockey stick a contrived, invention.
This is an academic argument at this point in that the first world has de facto rejected KYOTO......
Consensus.
As recently as 1992 the consensus of climatologists was that a global ice age was imminent.
Oh, and is anyone noticing that 1998 was the hottest year on record since 1934...and it has gotten cooler since then?
Yes, that's right - it is cooler in 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2004, 2005, 2006 and, so far, in 2007 than it was in 1998.
Isn't it supposed to be hotter?
Zipperfish @ Sun Apr 01, 2007 10:14 pm
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
BartSimpson BartSimpson:
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
And you call us alarmist? Come on--take a gander at your psostion here. AGW is a conspiracy by the left to crush America and capitalism, to get a "stranglehold" on the economy?
I'm sorry, where did I miss the proposed controls for CO2 emissions by China, India, & etc. or were they just aimed mostly at America and capitalism? Mmmmm?
Don't look at me to defend Kyoto--I never liked it. The point is that the AGW sceptics just love to call those of us that actually listen to the science "alarmist" while at the same time rolling out this elaborate conspiracy theories involving the left trying to crush capitalism and/or America.
And, one more time....where did I miss the proposed controls for CO2 emissions by China, India, & etc. or were they just aimed mostly at America and capitalism?
Kyoto is PROOF of a political slant against the West and capitalism because it doesn't do diddly about Communist pollution and, for that matter, it doesn't do diddly at all about pollution.
It is just an attack on our economies is all it is.
I don't believe that I ever mentioned CO2 controls in China, so that's a bit of a straw dog. What I am saying is that it's the AGW sceptics who are just as alarmist, if not more so, than the more pessimistic AGW supporters.
I believe you called it "Completely sabotaging industrial civilization..." Yeah, that's not alarmist at all.