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MasterBlaster,
Let me just address some of your questions.

1) What Chinese aggression to Canada?

The Chinese Academy of Military Sciences came out around 1999 stating that China needed exclusive 'economic zones' around the Pacific Rim in places such as the Panama Canal, Los Angeles (Long Beach), Portland, Yokohama, Sydney, Perth, Kuala Lumpur, Singapore, Kiribati, and Vancouver. The US Naval War College considers this statement as a declaration of intent similar to the Imperial Japanese Navy 'study' that Japan needed to neutralize Pearl Harbor. The threat is considered credible in my government and yours. It is not anticipated any time soon, but do note that China is training her current crop of naval ensigns to be familiar with Esquimalt and the Fraser River estuary.

2) Your comment about my 'opinion' of Canada relying on the USA or other allies for defence is factualised by the commentary and supporting documents found here: http://www.navy.dnd.ca/leadmark/doc/appendix_A_e.asp

I am not about to teach you subtlety nor will I equip you with the familiarity of joint operations and etc. Suffice it to say that what I say is a fact regardless of your uninformed opinions and if you care to ask your Navy if what I say is true or not I suggest you direct the query to a qualified non-com to get a straight answer.

Better yet, join the RCN and find out for yourself.

3) What foreign foe? How terribly ignorant of you. Canada's 'foes' don't all come sailing up in haze-gray painted warships. Belgium was a neutral and weak country in 1914 and they asked the same question of who would invade Belgium since Begium is a threat to no one?

Unlike Belgium Canada has timber, oil, zinc, gold, diamonds, and resources as yet unknown.

You may not know their names, but I assure you Canada has foes in a world where people fight and kill over much fewer riches than has Canada.

4) "Tell me, what is the current social thinking in Canada? "

You reflect that thinking with your query I entertained in item #3. Canadians are not an aggressive people so no one in the world is likely to ever feel threatened by a Canada armed with nuclear weapons.

5) "This site is about Canadian politics..."

Yes, it is. You blather about me being just another American and I'll have you know that this American pays Canadian taxes. I let you figure out the rest on your own.

   

The idea of Canada needing a multi-billion dollar military is just silly.

Canada HAS no threats to it. No one could seriously contemplate invading.

Whether anybody here likes it or not, whether either of the two countries want it this way or not, the United States will defend Canada. It HAS to.

Let's say there is no Canada. The 'separatist' craze catches on and Canada breaks up into twenty independent nations. ---In fact, northern B.C. becomes the Sovereign & Austere Kingdom of Prince Rupert, and southern B.C. becomes the Fairyland People's Democratic Socialist Republic of Vancouver.

Then, Asian nation X invades Vancouver. What happens?

The United States has to defend Vancouver, just as if it was one of it's own cities. ---it has to because it cannot allow a threatening force to move in just above Seattle.

Same deal for the Maritimes.

And as far as comparative military capacity is concerned, it's not just that the United States has twelve carrier fleets, but it can build new ones faster and more effectively than anyone else. In other words, if it wants to go to 18 or 24, it can.

You can call it weakness if you want. You could also call it pragmatism. You can compete with your neighbors if you live in suburbia, but if you live next to Bill Gates, you have to give it up.

I've said elsewhere in other posts, it's fine for Canada to have a military if it wants to have an effective role in international organizations,...

...but isn't it more sensible to take advantage of a secure position and not buy what you don't need?

You want to build a carrier group? I'm no pacifist, I'm a warifist, and I can't even see the sense in that.

Go build a hospital or a college; -- and take advantage of what you've got.





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What Chinese aggression to Canada?[/b][/quote]



Ok still waiting for this evidence of hostility towards Canada



And thats still what it is, Your opinion. That little link of your doesnt tell me anything about Canadas "weakness" by your own words.



Again, irrelevent to this discussion. Most of this is just fantasy in your head, hypothetical situations. You have some gall to call my opinions uninformed when yours are just fantasy.



Going back in time does not prove your point because thats what it is..History. Your WWI analogy proves nothing. You also have the gall to call me ignorant, your military boasting just smacks of it.



HUH?



No, I said you SOUND like another American am I directly calling you one?. Whoop de doo, you pay taxes, does that make you more knowledgable? Guess what, I pay taxes as well. Does that make me more knowledgable? Probably not.

Peter, I honestly dont know what you are trying to prove? You make up hypothetical situations and fantasy battles and other things in your mind claiming that is justification for a massive arms build up of Canada. What about my other points? Do you agree with those?

   

MB,
I've known RCN guys since 'Intense Look' way the heck back in '84. That was back when Canada deployed ships with upper hulls made out of WOOD and that is NOT an exaggeration. Just because your narrow little world does not include anything that actual MEN in Canada are involved in does not mean these things do not exist, are not true, are just opinion, or whatever.

A Canadian submarine once transited the White Sea.

And you have no damn idea what this means and will probably say its just my opinion.

Your avatar is an alarmingly accurate representative of your intellect.

   

China and the US are headed for confrontation. China has no respect for the Bush Doctrine (that is, the policy that the US will maintain military supremacy by any means necessary). I can't say I blame them for that. I can't think of a time in history when two great powers were not at each others throats, and unless China collapses in a way the Soviet Union did (possible) then we're headed for confrontation.

The US would prefer the confrontation be sooner rather than later, because they have currently have a leader who will willingly go to war, and because every day that goes by is anoither day China approaches US militray and technological supremacy.

I agree with Peter on most of his points, except that I believe it will be the US, not China, that precipitates conflict.

Eventually, Canada will have to choose sides.

This, of course, is all merely speculation on my part, but it doesn't strike me as an implausible scenario.

Now,MasterBlaster, do you think we should wait until such time as Canada is threatened to begin buttressing our military? Or do you think we should just assume that we'll never need a military of any reckoning?

   

Well I guess you had to resort to name calling, I thought you were pretty reasonable but your right, YOUR avatar is a perfect representation of your personality and intellect, all talk and nothing inside except what YOU want to believe.I guess you just proved me right with your lame rebuttle and in that fact you have to resort to insults. Oh well. Pssss switch off CNN before you go to bed.

   

You mean buttress our military like in PeterFinns fantasy world or reasonable military buildup? To this, I think our military needs major strengthing for Peacekeeping and defensive purposes. However, untill a major threat presents itself, I see no reason to build up massive amounts of arms just for show and tell. Id like to know why you agree with Peter that Canada needs nuclear arms just to show the world that we mean business. That we need 40 carrier groups of ships to show the world we are tough.

   

Gee, where have I heard something similar to this? Hmmm. Perhaps it was Neville Chamberlain?

   

Hmm WWII, what year is it now? Anyways, Peter, im not trying to pick a fight with you I just dont understand your reasoning behind massive buildup of arms just because of some situations that probably wont happen. Canada is not the only country in this world, would you go tell each and every single country to massivly build up its arms? How do you think one of the reasons why WWI started? Everybody building up arsenals......go figure. It just seems to me you want everybody to be like the U.S, thats all. I also dont know why you blow up a single island dispute into "Who has the biggest gun" show.

   

Zip,
The US just might do something to get the ball rolling but the way China has been going the last few years it seems they are working themselves up into a lather and they're going to get it on somewhere. The US could really just lay back and pick which hotspot we'll use as a convenient excuse to get before the UN and justify a smackdown.

Over on Free Republic there's a few foaming-at-the-mouth US haters from India who manage to get reasonable about the USA when the subject is Communist China. Then they get into conniptions about the Chinese trying to take over Nepal in order to get one step closer to the Indian Ocean. Those guys are similar to some of the folks on this thread who whine about the USA except that these guys used to have a hypothetical Chinese threat that has become real in recent days. It was just December when India told the US to piss of when we offered aid for their tsunami victims and now that they have China knocking on their back door they decide to buy US fighter aircraft, Boeing jets, and they're planning joint exercises with our Navy.

China has announced to the world their plans and, so far, they seem to be acting on them. Vancouver is in those plans so while the Chinese may not be doing much about it right now if they stay on course they eventually get around to it.

Hopefully, long before their 'economic zone' becomes a reality in Vancouver the US will have handed them their asses.

I guess what I'm saying is that the US does not really have to provoke an incident to pick a war with China, we just have to sit back and watch and then let them do something we feel is worth opening up the whoop-ass for.

I think that'll be Taiwan.

This will be a real test for the US' erstwhile allies such as France. If the French side with China in a real knock-down, kick-ass war then the American electorate will predictably want France broiled over a spit. If Germany goes with France then it could well be the end of NATO.

The UK, I think, will support the US quietly.

Then there's Canada.

If Canada says nothing and stays out of it then there may be minor ramifications from the US but no biggie. But if Canada, with the large Chinese population in Vancouver, comes out in favor of China then if the war gets nasty then the American electorate will see Canada as no different from the French.

Would the US do anything to Canada about this? I doubt it. We'd probably exchange shots with the French somewhere just out of pure anger.

But let's say the US gets beaten in a war with China. It can happen.

Then a Canada that sat by while the US got whooped will go it alone when China gets around to parking some ships at Esquimalt. Treaties be damned, any policitican who answers to the electorate will check a poll and decide that if the US can go it alone against China then so can Canada.

Something to think about when the People's Liberation Army Navy keeps their charts current for the Strait of Juan de Fuca.

   

In twenty to fifty years, nuclear weapons will be commonplace. The technology is some 60 years old and they get easier to build every year. Pretty soon the only ones that won't have nuclear weapons will be the nations that decided to abide by the nuclear non-proliferation treaty. IN other words, Canada's ranking will fall each year. Iran, North Korea and Pakistan have the bomb or are close to it. Who's next? I don't want to get pushed around by countries like that, and I don't want to complain about the US military and then rely on them to come get us out of a pinch.

In my opinion we need a credible deterrant -- even against the US in cse Ann Coulter ever got in as President. If things ever go bad I don't want to show up to a gunfight with a knife.

Even if we didn't get nukes I would want an armed force of almost unparalleled sophistication.

The points you make are very good, MasterBlaster. I used to think that way myself. I don't think there is a right or a wrong, just different viewpoints. I see the world as a more threatening place than it was ten years ago.

   

If the US invades China over Taiwan, then it will be the US that is the agressor. The person that starts the war with another country is the agressor; in theis case China would be the aggressor against Taiwan and the US against China. I can't see China invading the US, and that's why I say that it is more likelythat the US will negage the Chinese.

Taiwan is unlikely. That part of the chessboard is all locked up and nobody can move. I think proxy conflicts are more likely, similar to what we had in the cold war, as opposed to any direct conflict bewteen the two nations.

I find it hard to believe that there is any anti-US folks at Free Republic. They get banned pretty fast there, and the favoured topics of conversation seem to revolve around nuking France or stringing up gay people. Nasty place, and the fact that it thrives is a bad sign for the direction of politics in the US.

I don't understand this hostility towards France that characterizes the American right. The US is currently allied with Pakistan -- an Islamic military dictatorship. I don't care what France said or did, they're eons ahead of Pakistan.

AS for China, right now things are prtety good. We get a lot of Chinese immigrants here who produce wealth and pay taxes. We have a burgeoning trade with China and hopefully that relationship will grow and prosper.

   

Seems China is more at peace then the U.S is...but then again, they're not parading around their military.

   

Sure, China is building up military strength.

China is not on a world-conquering scheme. Before anything like that happened, China's interests are in Asia first. If China's military could go anywhere, it'd be due east. China wants oil, not Tim Horton's.

But I don't think it'll come to that.

China has been building up it's economy & has been growing wildly. That in itself is unstable.

They also have an increasing number of wealthy people and the Communist Party is still controlling things. Now, (keep this clear, this has nothing to do with Communist ideology, just practical politics). That increasing class of well-off Chinese have no political power. Political power still being controlled by a party that doesn't believe in it's own ideology.

Where does that lead? Looks like political collapse.

Can't happen? China's economy is too strong? Look at Japan. In the 1980's, Japan was supposed to be on the road to controlling the world's economy. ---A 15 year recession stopped that unstoppable Asian tiger.

Give it a couple of years. China has at least one more transition to go.

Now, the Chinese could pull it off quietly like the Soviet Union / Russia, but I doubt it.

If you look at Chinese history, nothing ever happens there without killing at least 100,000 people.

If they started out to cross the Pacific, they'd have to get past Japan first, and the Chinese don't especially like the Japanese.

North America doesn't have a problem for some time to come.

   

Thank you jaime. Which is quite different than this vaunted threat from china that *some* people seem to claim.

   

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