Canada Kicks Ass
Is Europe really worth America's trouble?

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ManifestDestiny @ Tue May 03, 2005 7:44 pm

Nevermind that France has been blocking American and British war efforts, and nevermind that the French thought it more important to send a message than to defend its friend and ally, Turkey. Nevermind that France has bullied Eastern European nations that support the US, basically stating that they should have kept quiet. And nevermind that the French, with its oil company (TotalFinaElf) poised to benefit intensely from extensive Iraqi oil contracts, have decided to put their economic interests at #1 on their list of priorities.

But France, in its infinite disregard for the peace and safety of the world, not only opposes war, but would have been perfectly content to do absolutely nothing about the Iraq situation. Consider this. France, Iraq's largest import partner, could have set the world's agenda. They could have told Iraq to disarm --pure and simple-- and banded with Austral0ia (Iraq's number two import partner) to threaten an economic embargo. Would Saddam not have to comply then, with 44% of their imports cut off? France could have done this. They could have been the ones leading this fight against the proliferation of WMD. Instead they chose to do nothing. Instead they chose to simply disagree with the US.

France could have been the hero here. Yet instead they did nothing.

   



Constantinople @ Tue May 03, 2005 7:48 pm

The last time the French were heroes was in 732.

   



ManifestDestiny @ Tue May 03, 2005 8:00 pm

The editorial reproduced below, entitled was written by Mathias
Dvpfner, CEO of the large German publishing firm Axel Springer, and
published in the German periodical Die Welt on 20 November 2004.

**************************************

A few days ago Henry Broder wrote in Welt am Sonntag, "Europe - your family name is appeasement." It's a phrase you can't get out of your head because it's so terribly true.

Appeasement cost millions of Jews and non-Jews their lives as England and France, allies at the time, negotiated and hesitated too long before they noticed that Hitler had to be fought, not bound to toothless agreements.

Appeasement legitimized and stabilized Communism in the Soviet Union, then East Germany, then all the rest of Eastern Europe where for decades, inhuman, suppressive, murderous governments were glorified as the ideologically correct alternative to all other possibilities.

Appeasement crippled Europe when genocide ran rampant in Kosovo, and, even though we had absolute proof of ongoing mass-murder, we Europeans debated and debated and debated, and were still debating when finally the Americans had to come from halfway around the world, into Europe yet again, and do our work for us.

Rather than protecting democracy in the Middle East, European appeasement, camouflaged behind the fuzzy word "equidistance," now countenances suicide bombings in Israel by fundamentalist Palestinians.

Appeasement generates a mentality that allows Europe to ignore nearly 500,000 victims of Saddam's torture and murder machinery and, motivated by the self-righteousness of the peace-movement, has the gall to issue bad grades to George Bush... Even as it is uncovered that the loudest critics of the American action in Iraq made illicit billions, no, TENS of billions, in the corrupt U. N. Oil-for-Food program.

And now we are faced with a particularly grotesque form of appeasement. How is Germany reacting to the escalating violence by Islamic fundamentalists in Holland and elsewhere? By suggesting that we really should have a "Muslim Holiday" in Germany.

I wish I were joking, but I am not. A substantial fraction of our (German) Government, and if the polls are to be believed, the German people, actually believe that creating an Official State "Muslim Holiday" will somehow spare us from the wrath of the fanatical Islamists.

One cannot help but recall Britain's Neville Chamberlain waving the laughable treaty signed by Adolph Hitler, and declaring European "Peace in our time".

What else has to happen before the European public and its political leadership get it? There is a sort of crusade underway, an especially perfidious crusade consisting of systematic attacks by fanatic Muslims, focused on civilians, directed against our free, open Western societies, and intent upon Western Civilization's utter destruction.

It is a conflict that will most likely last longer than any of the great military conflicts of the last century - a conflict conducted by an enemy that cannot be tamed by "tolerance" and "accommodation" but is actually spurred on by such gestures, which have proven to be, and will always be taken by the Islamists for signs of weakness.

Only two recent American Presidents had the courage needed for anti-appeasement: Reagan and Bush.

His American critics may quibble over the details, but we Europeans know the truth. We saw it first hand: Ronald Reagan ended the Cold War, freeing half of the German people from nearly 50 years of terror and virtual slavery. And Bush, supported only by the Social Democrat Blair, acting on moral conviction, recognized the danger in the Islamic War against democracy. His place in history will have to be evaluated after a number of years have passed.

In the meantime, Europe sits back with charismatic self-confidence in the multicultural corner, instead of defending liberal society's values and being an attractive center of power on the same playing field as the true great powers, America and China.

On the contrary, we Europeans present ourselves, in contrast to those "arrogant Americans", as the World Champions of "tolerance", which even Otto Schily justifiably criticizes.

Why?

Because we're so moral? I fear it's more because we're so materialistic, so devoid of a moral compass.

For his policies, Bush risks the fall of the dollar, huge amounts of additional national debt, and a massive and persistent burden on the American economy, because unlike almost all of Europe, Bush realizes what is at stake - literally everything.

While we criticize the "capitalistic robber barons" of America because they seem too sure of their priorities, we timidly defend our Social Welfare systems. Stay out of it! It could get expensive! We'd rather discuss reducing our 35-hour workweek or our dental coverage, or our 4 weeks of paid vacation, or listen to TV pastors preach about the need to "Reach out to terrorists, to understand and forgive".

These days, Europe reminds me of an old woman who, with shaking hands, frantically hides her last pieces of jewelry when she notices a robber breaking into a neighbor's house.

Appeasement? Europe, thy name is Cowardice.

   



Tman1 @ Tue May 03, 2005 8:04 pm

Jaime_Souviens Jaime_Souviens:
MasterBlaster MasterBlaster:
Jaime_Souviens Jaime_Souviens:
The FIRST law in International Law is that the nation with the power can do whatever it wants.

In fact, that's the ONLY international law.

Treaties and organizations are created by sovereign peers, and are only enforceable by sovereign peers. ---There is NO international legislature,* therefore there are NO international laws.

(*The U.N. is not a legislature, it's a convention of diplomats.)


No that is not a LAW, otherwise the world would be in total anarchy. And no its not the ONLY international law. Its called Diplomacy, Nuclear diplomacy, New Diplomacy, I think your confusing diplomacy with law. Treaties and organizations are created to help the balance and ensure that no other power can preside over another(technically). By your thinking, every nation with the power to do anything, can do anything. Sorry, you forgeting about economic sanctions? Coalitions to prevent other powers from doing what they want?...


No, it's the other way around.

Treaties are agreements created in lieu of law.

There's international law? Where's it's legislature? Where's it's statute books? Where are the international police that can arrest nations?

Every nation with the power to do anything, CAN do anything. A group of peer nations can create diplomatic pressure, but that's not law. A group of nations can also get together and sack another nation. (Poland, China, Germany are nice examples... )

Iraq invades Kuwait. Other nations get together and force it out. That wasn't law, that was power.

If China wants Taiwan, they're going to take it. And they're not going to consult a statute book to check if it's okay or not. ---They haven't done it yet, not because it would be illegal, but because the United States has a big f'ing navy and air force.




.


Tsk Tsk Mr Anarchist. Like I said, by your logic everything is in chaos, no rules, no holds barred. Geez you should listen to yourself. Whats to stop China from attacking America? Whats to stop.... France from attacking Britain? Vice versa... You are an idiot to think that China hasent viewed all the options by taking over Taiwan. Good Lord guy. Each and every one of those powers HAS the power by your logic, to do something.... hmmm yah Oh yah, they havent done that yet because of the U.S.A...LMFAO

http://www.un.org/law/ Might want to look there for your INTERNATIONAL LAW.

   



Zipperfish @ Wed May 04, 2005 8:35 am

$1:
The FIRST law in International Law is that the nation with the power can do whatever it wants.

In fact, that's the ONLY international law.



Well put.

   



Zipperfish @ Wed May 04, 2005 8:38 am

$1:
But France, in its infinite disregard for the peace and safety of the world, not only opposes war


So France, "in it's infinite disregard for peace ... opposes war"? This is a good example of why you should proof-read your posts.

   



Chigeeng @ Wed May 04, 2005 8:45 am

NYCisHome NYCisHome:
They could have been the ones leading this fight against the proliferation of WMD.


Your own government now acknowledges there was no WMD's.

When it comes to WMD's isn't the US the most prolific?

   



gideon @ Wed May 04, 2005 9:03 am

MasterBlaster MasterBlaster:
Tsk Tsk Mr Anarchist. Like I said, by your logic everything is in chaos, no rules, no holds barred. Geez you should listen to yourself. Whats to stop China from attacking America? Whats to stop.... France from attacking Britain? Vice versa... You are an idiot to think that China hasent viewed all the options by taking over Taiwan. Good Lord guy. Each and every one of those powers HAS the power by your logic, to do something.... hmmm yah Oh yah, they havent done that yet because of the U.S.A...LMFAO


Because actions have consequences (something most liberals don't understand). Not consequences under "international law," mind you, but rather consequences involving trade and force.

$1:
http://www.un.org/law/ Might want to look there for your INTERNATIONAL LAW.


The UN is completely useless and wields no power whatsoever in the modern world. Kind of like france. They couldn't force saddam, a two-bit dictator of a tiny, weak nation, to allow arms inspections; and they couldn't stop us from invading his sorry ass. The UN is dead, and it is time to abolish it.

   



Constantinople @ Wed May 04, 2005 9:04 am

Chigeeng Chigeeng:
NYCisHome NYCisHome:
They could have been the ones leading this fight against the proliferation of WMD.


Your own government now acknowledges there was no WMD's.

When it comes to WMD's isn't the US the most prolific?


Nope. Russia has more leftover from the days of the Cold War.

   



BartSimpson @ Wed May 04, 2005 10:00 am

Canrane Canrane:
PeterFinn PeterFinn:
There are still bad people in the world and the US may not be the most perfect country, but who else is going to keep the peace?

France? PDT_Armataz_01_14

Germany? PDT_Armataz_01_17

The UN? PDT_Armataz_01_23

Or the USA? PDT_Armataz_01_35


How about all of the above? It worked in the world wars (well, *against* germany...but still), it worked in Kosovo and it's working in Afghanistan. (The US is not the only country in A., just the biggest).

Why can't it work all the time? IMO, the role of the UN is to mobilize international efforts in such a way that no one country is keeping the peace, but rather, all of them are.


The UN *OPPOSED* the invasion of Kosovo. That is why it was a NATO action and not a UN action. Although after things worked out just fine the UN didn't mind coming in and joining the party after the hard work was done.

By America and Britain, as usual.

   



BartSimpson @ Wed May 04, 2005 10:09 am

TheUSofA1776 TheUSofA1776:
Chigeeng Chigeeng:
NYCisHome NYCisHome:
They could have been the ones leading this fight against the proliferation of WMD.


Your own government now acknowledges there was no WMD's.

When it comes to WMD's isn't the US the most prolific?


Nope. Russia has more leftover from the days of the Cold War.


True that. The USA is even paying to help Russia recycle their nukes into nuclear fuel.

But even Russian estimates show up to one THOUSAND nuclear components (complete and incomplete weapons that are not fused are typically called 'components' FYI) are unaccounted for.

The remaining Russian nuclear inventory is estimated at around 800 fusable and functional weapons while the US figure is about 1100 mostly deployed on US Navy ships and in storage as cruise missiles for the Air Force.

The US ICBM force is dialing down and the last California ICBM site closed a few years ago and a friend of mine actually bought one of the missile silos to use for a secured data storage facility.

China, however is building up an ICBM force and the US will eventually be forced to respond to this buildup.

   



BartSimpson @ Wed May 04, 2005 10:14 am

Chigeeng Chigeeng:
NYCisHome NYCisHome:
They could have been the ones leading this fight against the proliferation of WMD.


Your own government now acknowledges there was no WMD's.

When it comes to WMD's isn't the US the most prolific?


Yes, now that we are on site we've so far found nothing. But prior to the war even CANADIAN anti-war activists acknowledged the credibility of UN and NATO intelligence that Hussein had these things.

http://www.oise.utoronto.ca/CASAE/Misc/ ... rtoPM.html

Bush acted on what was then good info that even HUSSEIN did not dispute!

   



Zipperfish @ Wed May 04, 2005 10:28 am

Many people that support the invasion and occupation of Iraq seem to want to create the impression that there was a general consensus that Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction. There was no such consensus and I remember quite clearly the debate raging at the time. I myself had doubts, base don the evidence presented to me. Hans Blix and Scott Ritter, both on-the-ground senior weapons inspectors, found no evidence of reconstutued weapons of mass destruction.

Saying that there was worldwide consensus that Iraq had WMD is revisionist.

   



BartSimpson @ Wed May 04, 2005 10:30 am

Zipperfish Zipperfish:
$1:
But France, in its infinite disregard for the peace and safety of the world, not only opposes war


So France, "in it's infinite disregard for peace ... opposes war"? This is a good example of why you should proof-read your posts.


France veils their contempt for everyone else in snotty intellectualism. And then when they go it alone on dealing with world issues they are so inneffective that they aren't even up to the level of making a decent clusterfuck.

Their 'navy' spends more than 90% of its time along side. Their aircraft carrier is a rusting barge and if her hull wasn't fouled all the time maybe it would actually be able to pull off flight ops with a modicum of success. That is if it could make decent headway anyways. Half the time it's lucky to keep up enough speed to maintain steerage.

http://www.strategypage.com/dls/articles/2003127.asp

So then France bitches about the USA while France botches EVERY mission it does on its own.

Oh, but I forgot. Their most successful military mission was blowing up the unarmed 'Rainbow Warrior' in a New Zealand harbour (an act of war against NZ I might add), but then the Surete agents botched their success by getting caught.

"Bringing the French along on a mission is like bring a bagpipe along deer hunting."

   



Zipperfish @ Wed May 04, 2005 11:16 am

So France only has a right to an opinion only proportional to their military strength? You accuse the French of arrogance, but that's a rather arrogant attitude. Frankly, I'd take liberal democracy like France as an ally over an Islamic military dictatorship like Pakistan anyday, but that's just my opinion.

And it is doesn't change the fact that to say France, "in it's infinite disregard for peace ... opposes war" is an infinitely nonsensical supposition.

   



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