I watched a documentary last night called "Gaza Strip". It was from the point of view of Palestinian children a couple years ago, 2001. It really is shocking to see how they have to live there lives.

So I thought I would start a thread to discuss the issue, I will start off with what my understanding of the situation is, not saying it is 100% correct by any means.

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So Basically after WW1 the Western Allies divided up the middle east into block, because it was part of the ottoman empire which sided with Germany in so loosing the war. Jews had already starting migrating to these lands.

Then the British divided Palestine along the Jordan river, to the west was Jewish Palestine, to the east was trans-Jordan.

After WW2 many Jews that were left after the holocaust went to the newly formed country of Israel (west Palestine).

for the last 50 or more years there has been fighting between the Israeli Jews and the Palestine Arabs. They both consider each other terrorists.

But the difference is that the lands were Palestinian, the Jews were just carved out a large chunk by the western powers for a Jewish nation, so they are seen as invaders, and they are really.

The Israelis are in a large part funded and supplied by the United States and other western powers. So its basically Apache helicopters and A1M1 Tanks against rock throughing children.

The Israelis have been occupying the west bank and slowly demolishing there buildings and blocking there roads with checkpoints and such.

There has been so many attempts at peace one cannot count, seems it will never end. how can it end is there a solution?

is it right for the US to fund and support Israel? Do they do it for there own gain, to have an ally in the Arab lands to better project there power in that region of the world. If it this Israel state, seen as invaders that is the cause of the hatred in the Arab world towards western democracies? 911 and terrorism can it all be tied to Israel?

These are things I wish to discuss in a civil fashion.

This is a decent page with a brief hsitory with maps.
http://www.masada2000.org/historical.html

   

This confict goes much further back than that of the end of WW1. The Jews and the Palistinians have been at each other for more than 2 millinia.

If you were to look at the bible as a strictly historical document you would see that the Jews had been wandering the dessert for "40" years after Moses got them out of Egypt also around the same time Moses had a son with a concubine by the name of Mohamed, sound familiar. The Jews were a nation of people without a Land to call there own. So after there bannishment to the dessert "God" told Moses to appoint Jakob as the new leader (Rabi) of the Jews. God also told jakob to march on the Land of Palistine, and to wipe clean all the sin of the land. This included all Men, Women, Children, Livestock, Grains and burn it the ground. Sounds like Genocide to me (Not Cool). Jakob then marched on Jericko, the trumpets sounded and the walls fell. Jericko was a massicure. Although the Jews did not do as God said and didn't "wipe clean the land of Palistine. So that's the Prelude to the following wars and so on. Keep in mind that the palistinians of that day were not really accociated with one religion. Islam wasn't introduced to them untill a great time later, some time about 150 to 200 years later or there abouts.

Well thats the History Lesson.

What do you do with two nations of people that have been in a state of defacto war for more than 2000 years? I don't know but I can guarentee this. There will be another war in the neer future. How anybody thinks that they can fight a conventional war with the Isrealis is outside there mind. Not even the US could beat them and the Isrealis know it. The Isrealis are just too well dugin and there would be no way of getting to them in any substancial amount.

   

It's such a tough issue. Trevor and I went to the Jewish museum in Berlin (REALLY awesome, go see it if you get a chance) and the Jews have been persecuted wanderers for *so* long.


Like dwaters said, it's hard to solve something that involves resentment that goes back 2000 years. It's also very difficult because both sides are guilty, both sides are vicitimized, and both sides have some construable right to the land.

I heard a random suggestion that instead of putting Israel in that volatile region they should have given them a part of Canada lol

   

All it is is basically a historical issue combined with religion. Two similar yet completely seperate faiths fighting over holy lands that they claim to be distinctly holy. Being a historian myself, I believe in my own opinion that Israel has a little bit more right than the Palenstinians although I do note them being forced off some of their lands. Judaism I believe was a religion way before Islam so I dont know where Palestinians think they have the supreme right to Jerusalem as being their proclaimed capital. Now I read in the papers on how at least Israel is moving their people off lands claimed by Palestinians but what are the Palestinians doing? We wont suicide bomb you....at least for a little while. Both sides keep breaking the truce when Israel shoots innocents, then of course comes retribution from the Palestinians, the eternal cycle. I believe that the Palestinians should have their own land but at the cost of what? Israelis move off more and more land, the Palestinians get more arrogant and using bomber attack negotiating tactics.

   

I think this issue cannot ever be solved because there is so much hatred on both sides that reconciliation is virtually impossible. I say virtually because, you never know.

Every time a Palestinian blows himself and Isrealis up, it further emboldens the hardliners in Israel. The same occurrs whenever an Israeli soldier kills a Palestinian for no reason.

I remember a report from the CBC way back when the second intifada began. One part of it dealt with the death of a family's father. The wife was very distraught and she was saying "We will never forget this. When he is old enough [their son] I will show him the picture of his murdered father [it was a gruesome picture] and tell him to avenge his father's death."

That is the sort of mentality that pervades this issue. Not everyone is like that, but enough are to potentially prolong the confilct for a long, long time.

   

Awww how sweet dear, our child with his first AK-47.

   

to support Israel. You left one historical bit out. The British had been trying to occupy that land before WWII and the Arabs were knocking the hell out of them the way the French had been trying to occupy Viet Nam and getting knocked about before they left it to the Yanks. Eventually, with or without US support the Israelis will get blown off the map. I really don't care which, but like you say; those poor kids. I just hope they realise that it was the Yanks, not the Canucks that did them all the hurt when they wind up on top.

   

How were the British trying to occupy the Gaza before WWII? Thought imperialism was over after WWI.News to me. Of course Mid East history isnt my strong point correct me if im wrong. Why would you want Israelis blown off the map? Any particular reason? Americans are just interfering in things that doesnt concern them, nothing unusual there.

   

see these maps to see hwo the british wwere trying to occupy arab lands, but it was around and before ww1 not 2

   

I see the author has no qualms about adding his own rantings more often than not, but I guess it's got nothing on some of the flames I've seen on this board. Besides the maps are cool.

I often wonder how much of the 1982 return of the Sinai was influenced, directly or indirectly, by the spectre of the Soviet Union, which if I recall was rather strong then (and still is now, despite appearances). Considering how much American military hardware was sent to Israel throughout these decades, relative to any neighboring Arab countries that may have imported mostly Soviet weaponry, the middle eastern conflict would've probably looked more like another Cold War battlefield. Perhaps more resource-oriented than ideological, with Israel and Iraq fully armed and equipped by the US to divert attention away (though doubtful by choice) from the richer oil interests in Saudi Arabia, which had (and still has) a very poor military. But this is just conjecture on this portion of the conflict, not in explanation of the modern-day fiasco.

Just like to bring two points into the fray as harmless (*cough cough*) food-for-thought. One is just a quick reminder that the Mossad plays quite heavily in the Arab perception of Israel's actions (though I'm not sure for how long). The idea that a few secret agents/special forces can waltz into a country and wreak havoc sounds almost alien to us in our most unvolatile nations. But I guess living in a very unstable region makes the idea sound more credible. Not to mention that Bush seriously screwed up when he asked Syria to withdraw its troops AND its special forces units in Lebanon. As if giving credence that even puny little Syria was capable of manipulating Lebanese affairs through proxy.

The other has to do with the fact that the Dead Sea is poisonously saline and the Jordan River is relatively so, making freshwater somewhat scarce.

http://www.greencrossinternational.net/GreenCrossPrograms/WATERRES/gcwater/jordan.html
http://www.extremescience.com/DeadSea.htm

One of the maps shows the West Bank bordering the greatest stretch of the Jordan River. That being said, if we could locate a modern political map of Israel and the Palestinian Authority regions -- which includes settlements and the intended route of the security wall -- would we see any curious skews toward the Jordan River valley that may favor one side over the other?

And finally, a little blast-from-the-past excerpt that I honestly wasn't expecting to find. Can't confirm how credible the facts presented are (or how good his knowledge was), but enough practical points are presented to make you wonder why the West did what it did back in the 40's:

http://www.kinghussein.gov.jo/kabd_eng.html

   

I said that Israel will eventually be re-occupied by Arabs and whoever supports the Israelis will take a shit kicking. It would be best for the world if it happens quickly, but it isn't going to affect me much either way.

Tell me the British weren't meddling in the area at the time the second world war started. http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/mideast/brwh1939.htm

   

Well lets see, the 3 major religions all base their main religous point within a one block radius of each other. In otherwards, if religios were teenagers, theyd all go to the same high school. The Arabs built their mosque on the ruins of the first Jewish synagogue or something like that. Their is no doubt that there is going to be hostility between the two. We try to pack them like sardines into a tiny area and expect them to get along. Hopefully people will realize this and start opening things up maybe.

   

Let's stop trying to pack them together. That's what I said. Let's stay home(Richard The Lionheart should have taken that advice.), have a cold beer and let them sort it out amongst themselves. My words exactly.