NAFTA Renegotiation Topic
And poor old Theresa May has to pretend to believe that a good trade deal with the US would be easy to conclude.
DrCaleb @ Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:27 am
$1:
Javad Zarif linked the NAFTA scrap to the one involving his country in an interview that aired Sunday: "This administration is withdrawing from everything. Somebody called it the, 'Withdrawal Doctrine,' for this administration. It's withdrawing from NAFTA. It's withdrawing from Trans Pacific Partnership. It's withdrawing from UNESCO," Zarif said in a CBS interview.
"So people cannot trust anymore the word of the United States. You see, in order to bring United States on board for many of these international agreements, a lot of people make a lot of concessions. Now nobody is going to make any concessions to the United States because they know that the next U.S. president will come back and say, 'It wasn't enough."'
The Canadian and Mexican governments intend to sit through the storm.
They say there are no plans to walk out, or make aggressive counter-demands, like pushing their own non-starters — such as free trade in softwood lumber. They say they're better off working patiently.
Officials do profess to being perplexed about Trump's goal.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/nafta-s ... -1.4356331
Trump knows nothing about making deals. He's always been about bullying, intimidation and scamming others. He's a grifter and a shyster.
DrCaleb @ Mon Oct 16, 2017 11:49 am
And his mark will be felt for generations. 
herbie @ Mon Oct 16, 2017 12:41 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
Trump knows nothing about making deals. He's always been about bullying, intimidation and scamming others. He's a grifter and a shyster.
That's what he thinks making a deal IS....
Interesting and you're right Doc Trumps mark will rightly or wrongly be felt for years to come but, the fact remains that alot of Canadians who are all over Trump for either renegotiating or pulling out of these pacts with other countries and UN agencies are silent when our leader does the same thing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau ... -1.3390745
At the moment NAFTA is being renegotiated not scrapped but, if it is scrapped it will likely be replaced with something different and quite possibly even more equitable. As for UNESCO well, that has turned into nothing more than the anti Israel wing of the UN and until they throw the vermin who are running it out and turn it back into what it was created for I can't see why the US should be vilified for not funding direct attacks on an ally.
As for the TPP, I for one would have liked to see how far it would have gone because if you believe the "glass half full" crowd it would have benefited all countries, raised their GDP and forced to China to raise their standards to the level of the other TPP partners.
Then again if the "glass is half empty crowd" was right it would only have benefited the rich and favoured corporations over their workers but, without the US's participation the pact is pretty much a non starter which is to bad since I for one would have liked to see which side was right because as a Trade agreement it could have been renegotiated at some future point if a country felt it wasn't beneficial.
Oh wait.
TBH All I'm hearing is alot of bitching from the people, organizations and country's who's income, lifestyle or political beliefs will be severely affected by the sudden lack of American commitment and money.
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
At the moment NAFTA is being renegotiated not scrapped but, if it is scrapped it will likely be replaced with something different and quite possibly even more equitable. As for UNESCO well, that has turned into nothing more than the anti Israel wing of the UN and until they throw the vermin who are running it out and turn it back into what it was created for I can't see why the US should be vilified for not funding direct attacks on an ally.
Do you really think that's all UNESCO does?
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
Interesting and you're right Doc Trumps mark will rightly or wrongly be felt for years to come but, the fact remains that alot of Canadians who are all over Trump for either renegotiating or pulling out of these pacts with other countries and UN agencies are silent when our leader does the same thing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau ... -1.3390745I'm all for evidence based decisions, and that is one. There is no real reason to keep Cannibus illegal, while things like Tobacco, Alcohol and even fentanyl are legal.
Just because the US is still suffering from the 1940's delusion that Cannibus is evil, doesn't mean that the rest of us have to.
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
At the moment NAFTA is being renegotiated not scrapped but, if it is scrapped it will likely be replaced with something different and quite possibly even more equitable.
I can only assume that you haven't been paying attention. None of the things the US has demanded of NAFTA will be of any benefit to Canada. Our auto industry will be reduced, if not eliminated, and we already have a trade surplus in Dairy with the US - why should we reduce our quality standards to accept their hormone filled dairy products? And elimination of the trade dispute mechanism, that they keep losing at, will revert to disputes being settled in US courts, where they make the laws. How is that working for us so far?
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
As for the TPP, I for one would have liked to see how far it would have gone because if you believe the "glass half full" crowd it would have benefited all countries, raised their GDP and forced to China to raise their standards to the level of the other TPP partners.
Then again if the "glass is half empty crowd" was right it would only have benefited the rich and favoured corporations over their workers but, without the US's participation the pact is pretty much a non starter which is to bad since I for one would have liked to see which side was right because as a Trade agreement it could have been renegotiated at some future point if a country felt it wasn't beneficial.
Oh wait.
Analysis was that all the copyright bullshit, Pharma bullshit, etc. that US lobbyists inserted in there would have meant that the average consumer would get the shaft. Considering the TPP only mentioned 'citizen' a few times in that huge agreement, I didn't hold much hope of it being beneficial, nor did anyone else.
I do hold out hope that once all the US lobbyist junk is removed, that it would be an agreement to make China act like a responsible country, and improve Canada's markets on the world stage.
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
TBH All I'm hearing is alot of bitching from the people, organizations and country's who's income, lifestyle or political beliefs will be severely affected by the sudden lack of American commitment and money.
So, what, you were expecting stoic silence as the markets we've built over the decades suddenly shrink 2% - 10%?
$1:
The U.S. has introduced aggressive demands in virtually every major NAFTA area:
Auto parts. The U.S. wants all cars to comprise 50 per cent U.S. content to avoid a tariff. The U.S. has requested this policy be phased in within one year _ which automakers call impossible.
Dispute-resolution. The U.S. wants to gut the enforcement systems of NAFTA, making the panels for Chapter 11, 19 and 20 disputes either non-binding, or voluntary.
Buy American. The U.S. wants to severely curb other countries’ access to public works contracts.
Sunset clause. The U.S. has requested a termination clause that would end NAFTA after five years, unless all parties agree to extend the agreement.
The supply management request follows an earlier request for a de-facto veto over Canadian milk-classification decisions, which in the case of diafiltered cheese-making products has advantaged Canadian producers.
U.S. asks Canada to end dairy, poultry trade barriers, even as it puts up its own
Sunnyways Sunnyways:
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
At the moment NAFTA is being renegotiated not scrapped but, if it is scrapped it will likely be replaced with something different and quite possibly even more equitable. As for UNESCO well, that has turned into nothing more than the anti Israel wing of the UN and until they throw the vermin who are running it out and turn it back into what it was created for I can't see why the US should be vilified for not funding direct attacks on an ally.
Do you really think that's all UNESCO does?
Nope but, given thee litany of controversies involving Israel it would appear that's what it does the most of now.
BTW had this organization cleaned itself up and actually carried out their mandate minus the politics this wouldn't be the second time US has withdrawn from UNESCO.
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
Interesting and you're right Doc Trumps mark will rightly or wrongly be felt for years to come but, the fact remains that alot of Canadians who are all over Trump for either renegotiating or pulling out of these pacts with other countries and UN agencies are silent when our leader does the same thing.
http://www.cbc.ca/news/politics/trudeau ... -1.3390745I'm all for evidence based decisions, and that is one. There is no real reason to keep Cannibus illegal, while things like Tobacco, Alcohol and even fentanyl are legal.
Just because the US is still suffering from the 1940's delusion that Cannibus is evil, doesn't mean that the rest of us have to.
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
At the moment NAFTA is being renegotiated not scrapped but, if it is scrapped it will likely be replaced with something different and quite possibly even more equitable.
I can only assume that you haven't been paying attention. None of the things the US has demanded of NAFTA will be of any benefit to Canada. Our auto industry will be reduced, if not eliminated, and we already have a trade surplus in Dairy with the US - why should we reduce our quality standards to accept their hormone filled dairy products? And elimination of the trade dispute mechanism, that they keep losing at, will revert to disputes being settled in US courts, where they make the laws. How is that working for us so far?
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
As for the TPP, I for one would have liked to see how far it would have gone because if you believe the "glass half full" crowd it would have benefited all countries, raised their GDP and forced to China to raise their standards to the level of the other TPP partners.
Then again if the "glass is half empty crowd" was right it would only have benefited the rich and favoured corporations over their workers but, without the US's participation the pact is pretty much a non starter which is to bad since I for one would have liked to see which side was right because as a Trade agreement it could have been renegotiated at some future point if a country felt it wasn't beneficial.
Oh wait.
Analysis was that all the copyright bullshit, Pharma bullshit, etc. that US lobbyists inserted in there would have meant that the average consumer would get the shaft. Considering the TPP only mentioned 'citizen' a few times in that huge agreement, I didn't hold much hope of it being beneficial, nor did anyone else.
I do hold out hope that once all the US lobbyist junk is removed, that it would be an agreement to make China act like a responsible country, and improve Canada's markets on the world stage.
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
TBH All I'm hearing is alot of bitching from the people, organizations and country's who's income, lifestyle or political beliefs will be severely affected by the sudden lack of American commitment and money.
So, what, you were expecting stoic silence as the markets we've built over the decades suddenly shrink 2% - 10%?
Not at all and our gov't's right to fight it tooth and nail to get the best deal possible. But what I'm seeing is that the people in Canada and Mexico are only looking at it from their standpoint and completely ignoring the Americans in this equation/
These are agreements which means they can be renegotiated or scrapped and we'd better learn to live with that fact because we're about to be ass raped by our biggest trading partner unless we stop believing our requirements "must" take precedence over America's and expect them to submit to the mouse that roared.
Robert Lighthizer just gave a lecture to Canada and Mexico in his conference. Canada doesn't like free markets and liberty? No soup for you!
Trump doesn't want a NAFTA deal. He would prefer bilateral negotiations where the stronger party has even more leverage.
DrCaleb DrCaleb:
I'm all for evidence based decisions, and that is one. There is no real reason to keep Cannibus illegal, while things like Tobacco, Alcohol and even fentanyl are legal.
Fentanyl is a highly effective anesthetic but it is also a controlled substance.
Freakinoldguy Freakinoldguy:
Not at all and our gov't's right to fight it tooth and nail to get the best deal possible. But what I'm seeing is that the people in Canada and Mexico are only looking at it from their standpoint and completely ignoring the Americans in this equation/
These are agreements which means they can be renegotiated or scrapped and we'd better learn to live with that fact because we're about to be ass raped by our biggest trading partner unless we stop believing our requirements "must" take precedence over America's and expect them to submit to the mouse that roared.
As Minister Freeland said, 'there can be no agreement with a winner take all mentality'. Canada is fighting for Canadians, Mexico is fighting for Mexicans, and none of us are going to bow to the US on a deal that isn't beneficial to that country. The US already enjoys a trade large surplus with both countries, and demanding we dismantle many of our industries that serve us in order to have a larger trade surplus already is unreasonable.
Our requirements must take precedence over theirs if the deal is to be beneficial to us. Even the US Chamber of Commerce is saying the US demands are unreasonable, so there is no reason we should cede to unreasonable demands that hurt our economy or citizens.
And of course, Trump keeps repeating the bullshit that NAFTA is unfair.