Noam Chomsky - Libertarian Socialism: Contradicting terms?
Toro @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 6:13 pm
I'm a "pragmatic libertarian."
Is that a contradiction?
Does anybody care?
I thought not.
Toro Toro:
I'm a "pragmatic libertarian."
Is that a contradiction?
Does anybody care?
I thought not.
I've decribed myself the same way. The rule of thumb I go by is let private investment, unless it can be shown that government can do it better (i.e. national defence, judiciary)
Benoit @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 7:53 pm
Toro Toro:
I'm a "pragmatic libertarian."
Is that a contradiction?
Yes because libertarianism contains a kind of transcentalism that is monologic. For details, read Cheryl Misak, Professor of Philosophy, University of Toronto:
-'Pragmatism and The Transcendental Turn in Truth and Ethics' Transactions of the C.S. Peirce Society, 1994.
-'Truth and Deliberative Virtue' in Truth and Public Space, K. Vanhemelyrck (ed) Routledge (forthcoming).
-'Truth in Science and Ethics', Science: A Challenge to Philosophy? H. Koskinen, S. Pihlstrom (eds), Peter Lang, 2006.
-'Pragmatism and Pluralism: A Reply to Talisse', Transactions of the C.S. Peirce Society, 2005.
-'A Peircean Account of the Truth of Moral Judgements' H. Parret (ed), Peirce and Value Theory: On Peircean Ethics and Aesthetics, John Benjamins, 1994.
http://www.unm.edu/~pragma/faculty.html
Toro @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:57 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Toro Toro:
I'm a "pragmatic libertarian."
Is that a contradiction?
Does anybody care?
I thought not.
I've decribed myself the same way. The rule of thumb I go by is let private investment, unless it can be shown that government can do it better (i.e. national defence, judiciary)
Exactly.
Default to individual choice through the market. When markets fail, governments intervene.
faile @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 8:57 pm
(national defence, judiciary) are not the best examples of what makes you 'pragmatic' compared to other libertarians. Those are the things written right into the Libertarian Party of Canada's statement of principles:
$1:
The only proper functions of government, whose powers must be constitutionally limited are as follows: settling, according to objective laws, disputes among individuals, where private, voluntary arbitration has failed; providing protection from criminals; providing protection from foreign invaders.
Thanos @ Thu Jun 26, 2008 9:57 pm
Libertarian = crackpot
Socialist = butt-munch
And ever the twain shall meet.....
faile @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 6:42 am
Thanos Thanos:
Libertarian = crackpot
Socialist = butt-munch
And ever the twain shall meet.....
Then you'd have a buttcrack?
Benoit @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 9:20 am
Toro Toro:
When markets fail, governments intervene.
Governments are defining both the means (the market for example) and the ends (welfare for example).
I hate the fact that in Canada we have a Conservative government that rules based on gut instincts and personal ideology (see Ottawa trying to shut down safe injection site).
And a Liberal government that is completely lost the plot.
A libertarian crackpot government that stics on the basics, or "classic liberal" for that matter would be a good opportunity for growth in these times. Keep trade flowing, but also keep your social ideologies in your own home, not in parliament.
As they say
Keep the right out of our bedrooms
Kepp the left out of our pockets
Benoit @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 10:20 am
CommanderSock CommanderSock:
I hate the fact that in Canada we have a Conservative government that rules based on gut instincts and personal ideology (see Ottawa trying to shut down safe injection site).
And a Liberal government that is completely lost the plot.
A libertarian crackpot government that stics on the basics, or "classic liberal" for that matter would be a good opportunity for growth in these times. Keep trade flowing, but also keep your social ideologies in your own home, not in parliament.
As they say
Keep the right out of our bedrooms
Kepp the left out of our pockets
A libertarian is essentially a person who doesn't care whether or not you have stolen money in your pocket.
faile @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 11:48 am
Benoit Benoit:
A libertarian is essentially a person who doesn't care whether or not you have stolen money in your pocket.
Funny, but incorrect. Libertarians bar the use of force or fraud as a means to and end. Stolen money was, by definition, acquired by force or fraud.
faile faile:
(national defence, judiciary) are not the best examples of what makes you 'pragmatic' compared to other libertarians. Those are the things written right into the Libertarian Party of Canada's statement of principles:
$1:
The only proper functions of government, whose powers must be constitutionally limited are as follows: settling, according to objective laws, disputes among individuals, where private, voluntary arbitration has failed; providing protection from criminals; providing protection from foreign invaders.
Well then I'll add air quality and power transmission. Libertarians seem to be all about property rights. My problem with orthodox libertarians is that they they seem to run out of answers in sitations where property rights cannot be practically defined or implemented (air being a good example).
Benoit Benoit:
A libertarian is essentially a person who doesn't care whether or not you have stolen money in your pocket.
No, property rights are very important to libertarians. A libertarian is someone who thinks their right to property is more important than your right to life.
faile @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:27 pm
Zipperfish Zipperfish:
Well then I'll add air quality and power transmission. Libertarians seem to be all about property rights. My problem with orthodox libertarians is that they they seem to run out of answers in sitations where property rights cannot be practically defined or implemented (air being a good example).
The market will punish people who abuse air quality. Libertarians are as much about doing as you choose so long as you do not hurt others as they are about property rights. It wouldn't be inherently un-libertarian to punish someone unreasonably polluting the air. Big government is definitely not better at it. The only thing big government can do best is create bureaucrats to solve a problem, and have those bureaucrats use a lot of resources "trying to fix" a problem, but never actually fixing it (that would put them out of a job). Public service staff (managers anyway) spend most of their time trying to justify their existence.
faile @ Fri Jun 27, 2008 1:28 pm
hurley_108 hurley_108:
Benoit Benoit:
A libertarian is essentially a person who doesn't care whether or not you have stolen money in your pocket.
No, property rights are very important to libertarians. A libertarian is someone who thinks their right to property is more important than your right to life.
Also untrue. Those people are just libertarian trolls. Most self proclaimed libertarians I've met are very decent people.