Importing air pollution from China
ShepherdsDog @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:28 am
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/importing- ... -1.2773267
$1:
From a mountain-top facility on Mount Bachelor in Oregon, they have been analyzing what the wind brings them.
“We've documented long-range transportation of pollutants to North America. What we know is that mercury from Asia contributes 20 to 30 per cent of the mercury that is deposited here in the United States." He goes on to list an array of other toxic chemicals, “carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, sulfur. A whole witches' brew of pollutants, including ozone, gets moved across."
Jaffe knows what many people do not — the smog that makes headlines in Beijing or Shanghai does not stop at the edge of those mega cities.
Giant swathes of China, both rural and urban, are regularly cloaked in air pollution. I once travelled 1,200 kilometres from Beijing to Shanghai by rail and never left dense smog. People in China longingly speak of “blue sky days." When people show their vacation pictures from abroad they show pictures of the sky and people marvel about the clarity of the air.
“We've documented long-range transportation of pollutants to North America. What we know is that mercury from Asia contributes 20 to 30 per cent of the mercury that is deposited here in the United States." He goes on to list an array of other toxic chemicals, “carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, sulfur. A whole witches' brew of pollutants, including ozone, gets moved across."
Jaffe knows what many people do not — the smog that makes headlines in Beijing or Shanghai does not stop at the edge of those mega cities.
Giant swathes of China, both rural and urban, are regularly cloaked in air pollution. I once travelled 1,200 kilometres from Beijing to Shanghai by rail and never left dense smog. People in China longingly speak of “blue sky days." When people show their vacation pictures from abroad they show pictures of the sky and people marvel about the clarity of the air.
We cut back, they ramp up two fold
andyt @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 10:36 am
We ship em the raw materials so they can produce the cheap crap that we buy back from them. Seems only fair that if we want the low prices that lack of environmental and labor regulations give, we should share some of the costs too. That's just our pollution coming back to us.
Delwin @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:43 pm
That's the beauty of outsourcing, not only do we outsource our pollution and human rights violations, we get to outsource our guilt and hang on to our self righteous attitudes too. Hullo, winning!!
bootlegga @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:54 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/importing-air-pollution-from-china-1.2773267
We cut back, they ramp up two fold
$1:
From a mountain-top facility on Mount Bachelor in Oregon, they have been analyzing what the wind brings them.
“We've documented long-range transportation of pollutants to North America. What we know is that mercury from Asia contributes 20 to 30 per cent of the mercury that is deposited here in the United States." He goes on to list an array of other toxic chemicals, “carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, sulfur. A whole witches' brew of pollutants, including ozone, gets moved across."
Jaffe knows what many people do not — the smog that makes headlines in Beijing or Shanghai does not stop at the edge of those mega cities.
Giant swathes of China, both rural and urban, are regularly cloaked in air pollution. I once travelled 1,200 kilometres from Beijing to Shanghai by rail and never left dense smog. People in China longingly speak of “blue sky days." When people show their vacation pictures from abroad they show pictures of the sky and people marvel about the clarity of the air.
“We've documented long-range transportation of pollutants to North America. What we know is that mercury from Asia contributes 20 to 30 per cent of the mercury that is deposited here in the United States." He goes on to list an array of other toxic chemicals, “carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, sulfur. A whole witches' brew of pollutants, including ozone, gets moved across."
Jaffe knows what many people do not — the smog that makes headlines in Beijing or Shanghai does not stop at the edge of those mega cities.
Giant swathes of China, both rural and urban, are regularly cloaked in air pollution. I once travelled 1,200 kilometres from Beijing to Shanghai by rail and never left dense smog. People in China longingly speak of “blue sky days." When people show their vacation pictures from abroad they show pictures of the sky and people marvel about the clarity of the air.
We cut back, they ramp up two fold
Shouldn't they be allowed to have two cars in each McMansion they build too? What you call ramping up is really more like catching up?
Or should everybody - the West included - accept a lower level of emissions?
I'm being facetious and playing devil's advocate of course, but from their POV, it's hardly fair for the West to deny everyone else what we have. So either we need to come up with a new global standard for per capita emissions (which would need to be far below what we use now) or expect that many nations will emulate us and drive up global emissions.
I'll be honest and say I don't know what a fair level of emissions is or even how to get there, but if we want to emissions to level off and decline, we need to come up with something.
Otherwise, it's just a cae of us saying "Do as I say, not as I do."
The obvious reply to that is often, "Fuck you too."
Just saying...
ShepherdsDog @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 1:59 pm
chirp on about the coming apocalypse of climate change then.
raydan @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:09 pm
Why not, we import pretty much everything from China.
bootlegga @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:25 pm
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
chirp on about the coming apocalypse of climate change then.
You have me confused for someone else - I don't think it's going to be an apocalypse, but it could have serious consequences for our children and grandchildren. Even if climate change doesn't directly affect them (droughts, food/water shortages, or any of the other things that might occur, those things happening elsewhere in the world my destabilize it enough for real life consequences that would (like floods of refugees from flooded nations, less food/water due to higher costs, etc.).
Call me selfish, but I'd just as soon spare them those problems if I can, kind of like immunizing them to reduce their chances of future illnesses, having life insurance to help in the event of a catastrophic illness/accident, etc. .
If you don't care about your kids enough to make some changes (and maybe even advocate for some others), then that's for you to reconcile with, not me.
Personally, I'm not so selfish as to not care what the world may be like after I'm dead.
As for dealing with rising Third World emissions, that is part of trying to deal with climate change in general.
andyt @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:51 pm
bootlegga bootlegga:
Shouldn't they be allowed to have two cars in each McMansion they build too? What you call ramping up is really more like catching up?
Or should everybody - the West included - accept a lower level of emissions?
I'm being facetious and playing devil's advocate of course, but from their POV, it's hardly fair for the West to deny everyone else what we have. So either we need to come up with a new global standard for per capita emissions (which would need to be far below what we use now) or expect that many nations will emulate us and drive up global emissions.
I'll be honest and say I don't know what a fair level of emissions is or even how to get there, but if we want to emissions to level off and decline, we need to come up with something.
Otherwise, it's just a cae of us saying "Do as I say, not as I do."
The obvious reply to that is often, "Fuck you too."
Just saying...
Too bad you're being facetious, because that is exactly the problem. More and more 3rd worlders coming on stream that are able to have the same mod cons we do, with the same environmental cost.
There is also something to the argument that current carbon levels are mostly the result of industrial activity in the 1st world - is it fair to say everybody should cut back, when we built our economies on the back of spewing carbon like crazy.
If we have per capita standard of emission, China, with it's masses, will kick your butts industrially even more than now.
Apparently the level of CO2 before doom is 545 ppm. so the fair way to find the per capita output would be to subtract current level from 545 and assign each person one share of the diff, to with what they want. Of course there are 1000 new people born each day, so every day each persons allotment would have to be reduce to give these 1000 newbies their share. If you've already sold your share (promising to never spew carbon again) you'd have to kill yourself to make things fair.
$1:
(which would need to be far below what we use now)
Exactly. This is something nobody seems to get - to keep global warming at 2degrees, assuming it's all caused by us, we would all have to put out way less carbon than we do now. Buying a 4cyl vs v8 or a high efficiency furnace isn't going to cut it - more like taking electric transit and living in vast hives that are economical to heat/cool, and that are close to your work. Huge drop in standard of living.Personally, why worry about AGW when something else is going to get us first: plague, war or famine, so why worry, live it up while you can. And quit making babies.
andyt @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 2:53 pm
So should these Jews be kicked out of the country like people have advocated for Muslims who want to bring in sharia?
Whoops, wrong topic.
saturn_656 @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 4:21 pm
bootlegga bootlegga:
ShepherdsDog ShepherdsDog:
http://www.cbc.ca/news/world/importing-air-pollution-from-china-1.2773267
We cut back, they ramp up two fold
$1:
From a mountain-top facility on Mount Bachelor in Oregon, they have been analyzing what the wind brings them.
“We've documented long-range transportation of pollutants to North America. What we know is that mercury from Asia contributes 20 to 30 per cent of the mercury that is deposited here in the United States." He goes on to list an array of other toxic chemicals, “carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, sulfur. A whole witches' brew of pollutants, including ozone, gets moved across."
Jaffe knows what many people do not — the smog that makes headlines in Beijing or Shanghai does not stop at the edge of those mega cities.
Giant swathes of China, both rural and urban, are regularly cloaked in air pollution. I once travelled 1,200 kilometres from Beijing to Shanghai by rail and never left dense smog. People in China longingly speak of “blue sky days." When people show their vacation pictures from abroad they show pictures of the sky and people marvel about the clarity of the air.
“We've documented long-range transportation of pollutants to North America. What we know is that mercury from Asia contributes 20 to 30 per cent of the mercury that is deposited here in the United States." He goes on to list an array of other toxic chemicals, “carbon monoxide, carbon dioxide, nitrogen oxide, sulfur. A whole witches' brew of pollutants, including ozone, gets moved across."
Jaffe knows what many people do not — the smog that makes headlines in Beijing or Shanghai does not stop at the edge of those mega cities.
Giant swathes of China, both rural and urban, are regularly cloaked in air pollution. I once travelled 1,200 kilometres from Beijing to Shanghai by rail and never left dense smog. People in China longingly speak of “blue sky days." When people show their vacation pictures from abroad they show pictures of the sky and people marvel about the clarity of the air.
We cut back, they ramp up two fold
Shouldn't they be allowed to have two cars in each McMansion they build too? What you call ramping up is really more like catching up?
Or should everybody - the West included - accept a lower level of emissions?
I'm being facetious and playing devil's advocate of course, but from their POV, it's hardly fair for the West to deny everyone else what we have. So either we need to come up with a new global standard for per capita emissions (which would need to be far below what we use now) or expect that many nations will emulate us and drive up global emissions.
I'll be honest and say I don't know what a fair level of emissions is or even how to get there, but if we want to emissions to level off and decline, we need to come up with something.
Otherwise, it's just a cae of us saying "Do as I say, not as I do."
The obvious reply to that is often, "Fuck you too."
Just saying...
Well the situation can't be that bad if "well I want my two car garage and McMansion too" is a valid reason for China to ignore their skyrocketing emissions.
Just my opinion.
Freakinoldguy @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 5:12 pm
What's the panic? They'll all be dead from their coal fired pollution long before we are so, since it's the last guy standing we still win. The only trouble will be who'll manufacture all Wal-Mart's crap after they off themselves? 
grainfedprairieboy @ Sun Sep 21, 2014 7:04 pm
andyt andyt:
We ship em the raw materials so they can produce the cheap crap that we buy back from them. Seems only fair that if we want the low prices that lack of environmental and labor regulations give, we should share some of the costs too. That's just our pollution coming back to us.
Couldn't have said it better myself but try for just one week not to buy anything made in China. It is impossible if you live a normal consumer life.
You might enjoy this series of videos on the History of Stuff. Very well done series.
bootlegga @ Mon Sep 22, 2014 10:19 am
saturn_656 saturn_656:
bootlegga bootlegga:
Shouldn't they be allowed to have two cars in each McMansion they build too? What you call ramping up is really more like catching up?
Or should everybody - the West included - accept a lower level of emissions?
I'm being facetious and playing devil's advocate of course, but from their POV, it's hardly fair for the West to deny everyone else what we have. So either we need to come up with a new global standard for per capita emissions (which would need to be far below what we use now) or expect that many nations will emulate us and drive up global emissions.
I'll be honest and say I don't know what a fair level of emissions is or even how to get there, but if we want to emissions to level off and decline, we need to come up with something.
Otherwise, it's just a cae of us saying "Do as I say, not as I do."
The obvious reply to that is often, "Fuck you too."
Just saying...
Or should everybody - the West included - accept a lower level of emissions?
I'm being facetious and playing devil's advocate of course, but from their POV, it's hardly fair for the West to deny everyone else what we have. So either we need to come up with a new global standard for per capita emissions (which would need to be far below what we use now) or expect that many nations will emulate us and drive up global emissions.
I'll be honest and say I don't know what a fair level of emissions is or even how to get there, but if we want to emissions to level off and decline, we need to come up with something.
Otherwise, it's just a cae of us saying "Do as I say, not as I do."
The obvious reply to that is often, "Fuck you too."
Just saying...
Well the situation can't be that bad if "well I want my two car garage and McMansion too" is a valid reason for China to ignore their skyrocketing emissions.
Just my opinion.
I don't know how bad climate change is (or will be), but the Communist Party is concerned with their own survival and not about that of people elsewhere on the globe.
That's why they are adding a coal-fired plant every week - they need the energy to keep their 'economic miracle' going or else the poor people not living in coastal regions will revolt just like Mao did.