What do CPC supporters think of the Canada China trade deal?
andyt @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 9:57 am
Sounds pretty scary to me. Chinese firms investing here will play by our, fair rules, including Chinese govt owned firms. In China, our firms will play by their rules - doubt they'll be fair.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/27/cana ... ine-print/ Note the part where China is suing Belgium because they lost their shirt on a private bank deal. This will make the kind of shit we got from the US under NAFTA look like kindygarden.
martin14 @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:29 am
andyt andyt:
Sounds pretty scary to me. Chinese firms investing here will play by our, fair rules, including Chinese govt owned firms. In China, our firms will play by their rules - doubt they'll be fair.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/27/cana ... ine-print/ Note the part where China is suing Belgium because they lost their shirt on a private bank deal. This will make the kind of shit we got from the US under NAFTA look like kindygarden.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/27/cana ... ine-print/ Note the part where China is suing Belgium because they lost their shirt on a private bank deal. This will make the kind of shit we got from the US under NAFTA look like kindygarden.
Fortis was nationalized, so it stopped being a private deal when the gov't stepped in.
However, one thing to remember:
Private companies in the West usually operate as private companies.
Independent of the gov't.
Chinese companies don't; at some level the gov't has influence, and in the case of
Fortis, the Chinese government will use it's political power to influence the Belglian gov't.. pay up or no more Chinky money for Belgium.
That is an example of the Chinese government going to bat for what should be
a private company, something in general we don't do.
TBH, Canadian companies are pretty naive when it comes to the big bad world.
We are too used to easy deals with the Americans, where everyone is more or
less honest, and everyone is more or less interested in keeping a business
relationship, so everyone needs make a little money at least.
Any business with China needs to be in/out, very fast, cash only.
The Chinese are a big bunch of completely immoral bastards.
They have no problem fucking you the second you turn your back,
and steal everything that your company worked hard to provide.
Any questions on that, ask Shep.
andyt @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:33 am
It doesn't make sense then to lock ourselves into a 30 yr deal. NAFTA we can get out of in 6 months. This deal seems to be flying under the radar, but I think we should be shitting bricks.
back_blastnet @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:13 pm
Andyt, I'd agree that its not getting the media attention it deserves, but its not flying completely under the radar. The NDP has received over 60000 pieces of correspondence against the deal and our international trade critic Don Davies had a campaign going to try and get conservative MPs on that committee to debate it. This led to an incident this week and a question of privilege(you may have to scroll down the page to get to it).
http://openparliament.ca/debates/2012/10/25/don-davies-3/
Then an apology
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-notebook/conservative-mp-apologizes-for-making-a-blackberry-jam/article4686503/
More info can be found on Don Davies' website at
http://www.dondavies.ca/canada-china-fipa/
andyt @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 12:30 pm
I'm aware of those incidents, bb. The media is reporting it, I know about it from reading newspapers. People are also writing letters to the editor about it. But I think it needs much more attention being paid. The NDP should write concise opinion pieces about what's wrong with the deal, and the dangers, so Joe sixpack can understand them. And on this forum, we get all in a lather about all sorts of inconsequential stuff, but this gets a meh. Guess all the CPC people think this is a good idea.
Thanos @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 1:42 pm
No opinion. I'm against all the trade deals in retrospect because I don't think the loss of sovereignty was worth it. But it's pointless to tilt against this windmill. Globalization of trade is just the way things are now and there's no logic in fighting a battle that was lost twenty-five years ago. And just because the NDP turned out to be correct on one issue is no reason to believe that they're correct on much else. They're still obsessed with massive tax hikes, favouring one part of the country (Quebec & Ontario) over the others, and shutting down an entire sector of the economy (Alberta) to placate their radical environmentalist followers. On that kind of overall scorecard they're +1 on one issue and about -1000 on all the others.
Who knows? Maybe if pot were legalized free trade would never have happened.
OnTheIce @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 2:50 pm
andyt andyt:
I'm aware of those incidents, bb. The media is reporting it, I know about it from reading newspapers. People are also writing letters to the editor about it. But I think it needs much more attention being paid. The NDP should write concise opinion pieces about what's wrong with the deal, and the dangers, so Joe sixpack can understand them. And on this forum, we get all in a lather about all sorts of inconsequential stuff, but this gets a meh. Guess all the CPC people think this is a good idea.
With respect to Dan above, opinion pieces from the NDP on economic issues hold little weight with the public, especially here in Ontario.
If it's a concern to the NDP, they should have someone more well versed on economics speak on the issue so it holds more credibility.
I don't yet know enough about the deal to form an opinion, I'll do some reading on it....
andyt @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 3:57 pm
I've read that this pact would allow Sinopec to sue Canada if BC blocks the Northern Gateway pipeline and to demand only Chinese labor and materials be used on it. If this is true, it's insane. We've already seen the bragging about Chinese investment in our coal mines insisting on importing Chinese labor, and ads for local workers specifying they must speak Mandarin. Insanity.
pineywoodslim @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 4:05 pm
andyt andyt:
Sounds pretty scary to me. Chinese firms investing here will play by our, fair rules, including Chinese govt owned firms. In China, our firms will play by their rules - doubt they'll be fair.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/27/cana ... ine-print/ Note the part where China is suing Belgium because they lost their shirt on a private bank deal. This will make the kind of shit we got from the US under NAFTA look like kindygarden.
http://www2.macleans.ca/2012/09/27/cana ... ine-print/ Note the part where China is suing Belgium because they lost their shirt on a private bank deal. This will make the kind of shit we got from the US under NAFTA look like kindygarden.
Folks interested in trade agreements that strip nations of national sovereignty in areas of labor rights, environmental rights, and financial rights should be aware of the Transpacific Partnership Agreement, currently being negotiated by the US, Canada, and a number of East Asian governments.
http://systemicdisorder.wordpress.com/2 ... han-nafta/
According to that site, which discusses those issues from a US perspective, though I would think it affects Canada the same, international trade tribunals would have the right to abrogate sovereign national law.
Hey, your nation has a minimum wage? laws that protect the right of labor to organize? Sorry, those just might be considered unfair trade practices.
back_blastnet @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:40 pm
Hi Thanos, I have to ask, which "Massive tax hikes" are you referring to?
On the question of a perception of favoring Ontario+Quebec vs. Shutting down Alberta's economy, I think you're way off there but would take a while to explain that. The NDP believes in polluter pay. We're not trying to shut down the oilsands.
These days If we want to go down that kind of thinking it could be said that the CPC favors Alberta's expansion over the entire rest of the country. Balance is what is needed.
OnTheIce, I won't disagree with you that the NDP is perceived to be weaker on economic issues then the government. That's a long standing issue we certainly are working on. I'm curious who it is that you feel isn't well versed speaking on the economy and who do you think would be a good choice?
Last year, I had a very interesting conversation with someone from the business development bank of Canada(BDC) who told me that in their experience, conservatives always overvalue their economic knowledge and New Democrats always undervalue their economic knowledge.
Former Bank of Canada chief David Dodge on an imbalanced economy:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-should-help-stabilize-imbalanced-national-economy-ex-bank-of-canada-chief/article4603206/
Of course in Ontario's case its also easy to say "Bob Rae", but he's a liberal and always has been. That being said I'd like to see if anyone thinks another party inheriting power at that time in 1990 would have done better and why?
Look at any other province the NDP has held power and its a completely different situation.
TPP and CETA will have big impacts on Canada's economy both positive and negative depending on what ends up in the final versions. Its coming up fairly regularly in the Industry, Science and Tech committee where we're currently doing a study on Intellectual Property(IP).
jj2424 @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 8:49 pm
back_blastnet back_blastnet:
Hi Thanos, I have to ask, which "Massive tax hikes" are you referring to?
On the question of a perception of favoring Ontario+Quebec vs. Shutting down Alberta's economy, I think you're way off there but would take a while to explain that. The NDP believes in polluter pay. We're not trying to shut down the oilsands.
These days If we want to go down that kind of thinking it could be said that the CPC favors Alberta's expansion over the entire rest of the country. Balance is what is needed.
OnTheIce, I won't disagree with you that the NDP is perceived to be weaker on economic issues then the government. That's a long standing issue we certainly are working on. I'm curious who it is that you feel isn't well versed speaking on the economy and who do you think would be a good choice?
Last year, I had a very interesting conversation with someone from the business development bank of Canada(BDC) who told me that in their experience, conservatives always overvalue their economic knowledge and New Democrats always undervalue their economic knowledge.
Former Bank of Canada chief David Dodge on an imbalanced economy:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-should-help-stabilize-imbalanced-national-economy-ex-bank-of-canada-chief/article4603206/
Of course in Ontario's case its also easy to say "Bob Rae", but he's a liberal and always has been. That being said I'd like to see if anyone thinks another party inheriting power at that time in 1990 would have done better and why?
Look at any other province the NDP has held power and its a completely different situation.
TPP and CETA will have big impacts on Canada's economy both positive and negative depending on what ends up in the final versions. Its coming up fairly regularly in the Industry, Science and Tech committee where we're currently doing a study on Intellectual Property(IP).
On the question of a perception of favoring Ontario+Quebec vs. Shutting down Alberta's economy, I think you're way off there but would take a while to explain that. The NDP believes in polluter pay. We're not trying to shut down the oilsands.
These days If we want to go down that kind of thinking it could be said that the CPC favors Alberta's expansion over the entire rest of the country. Balance is what is needed.
OnTheIce, I won't disagree with you that the NDP is perceived to be weaker on economic issues then the government. That's a long standing issue we certainly are working on. I'm curious who it is that you feel isn't well versed speaking on the economy and who do you think would be a good choice?
Last year, I had a very interesting conversation with someone from the business development bank of Canada(BDC) who told me that in their experience, conservatives always overvalue their economic knowledge and New Democrats always undervalue their economic knowledge.
Former Bank of Canada chief David Dodge on an imbalanced economy:
http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/politics/ottawa-should-help-stabilize-imbalanced-national-economy-ex-bank-of-canada-chief/article4603206/
Of course in Ontario's case its also easy to say "Bob Rae", but he's a liberal and always has been. That being said I'd like to see if anyone thinks another party inheriting power at that time in 1990 would have done better and why?
Look at any other province the NDP has held power and its a completely different situation.
TPP and CETA will have big impacts on Canada's economy both positive and negative depending on what ends up in the final versions. Its coming up fairly regularly in the Industry, Science and Tech committee where we're currently doing a study on Intellectual Property(IP).
EDIT BY MOD
saturn_656 @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:36 pm
jj2424 jj2424:
Oh fer fuck sakes. I didn't know Mulcair had a direct spam line on the internet.
go fuck yourself.
go fuck yourself.
I think the forum noob just told off an MP.
I'm not going to see anything tonight that'll top that, I'm sure.
back_blastnet @ Sat Oct 27, 2012 10:42 pm
jj2424 jj2424:
Oh fer fuck sakes. I didn't know Mulcair had a direct spam line on the internet.
go fuck yourself.
Saturn_656, well he's entitled if he wants. At least for now...
You know its comments like the above that gives credibility to ideas like the below:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/26/conservative-mp-dean-del-mastro-says-anonymous-commenters-on-news-articles-should-be-forced-to-identify-themselves/
jj2424 @ Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:36 pm
back_blastnet back_blastnet:
jj2424 jj2424:
Oh fer fuck sakes. I didn't know Mulcair had a direct spam line on the internet.
go fuck yourself.
Saturn_656, well he's entitled if he wants. At least for now...
You know its comments like the above that gives credibility to ideas like the below:
http://news.nationalpost.com/2012/10/26/conservative-mp-dean-del-mastro-says-anonymous-commenters-on-news-articles-should-be-forced-to-identify-themselves/
Lefties claim the internet is filled with Con spam bots. How does it feel to be back in third place? I'll gladly identify myself.
back_blastnet @ Sun Oct 28, 2012 8:58 pm
jj2424, I'm not the one suggesting everyone should have to be identified, CON MP Dean Del Mastro is. What do you think about that?
So why did you bring up conspiracies about Con spam bots? And you hear the same thing from the right about "Lefty spam bots".
Do you have anything to add to the discussion about China Canada FIPA or just more profanity for profanity's sake?