This will start some shit.. refugee status for deserters

How would we defend your country if you were to allow individuals to select when and where they fought?
In which battles in any given war they could take a pass on.
Which orders they would or would not follow?

Select IF they want to join the armed forces, YES, but once you are in an army, and you can ask any grunt, in any army, anywhere in the world, your personal likes and dislikes do not exist.

If you don’t want to fight don’t join.
Once you join you’re in and you must do what is expected of you.
And in the army you really never have to do anything that would go against your personal beliefs.

And there my friends are the rub.
Just like what is happening in the Israeli army right now people are saying NO!
We won’t do that, they are standing up and saying, it’s wrong and I won’t do that anymore!
But these people there willing to pay the price for there beliefs. They aren’t running away.
They at least are willing to fight for there beliefs not cut and run.

Here is a link about an American who faught in Iraq, came back on leave, and refused to return, accepting prison for desertion. He is supported by Amnesty International

http://www.notinourname.net/troops/mejia-4jun04.htm

Should he do what he is doing, or should he have considered Canada?

That's really up to him, Antoine. Think about where you read this story though...the Not in Our Name site. Amnesty International is backing him, which is good. Not exactly major news coverage.

His story is also very similar to the stories of the men who came to Canada. They did serve but, because of what the US government was doing, decided they could not keep doing it. All three applied for conscientious objector status, trying to work within the system.

That shows the lie of any of the three being cowards or simply being unwilling to do what they signed on to do. They had already served and were willing to continue serving in a different capacity.

Rev-

I wasn't aware of that, sorry. The original link to the article has "not found" status, I would like to re-read an article about these three situations. Do you have another link?

Merci.

Actually I was refusing to a news article that reported that there are a growing number of ISRAELI solders that are refusing to go into the Palestinian refugee camps and rip down there homes.
I am looking for where I put the article and I can’t find it , I’ll keep trying.
The exact number of solders that have refused I don’t want to speculate on but they mentioned growing numbers. Could be two or twenty-two. But it is happening and they are going to jail for their beliefs.

This is not the article I was talking about but it shows the same resolve
And this from a 19 year old who was not willing to run away but to stand up for his beliefs

West Jerusalem

On October 4, nineteen-year-old Israeli soldier Noam Kuzar was jailed for twenty-eight days in a military prison for refusing to participate in current Israel Defense Forces operations to counter Palestinian protest activity. When Kuzar's unit was ordered to help put down the Palestinian revolt, he told his commanding officers that he could not in good conscience participate in such actions.

For more information, e-mail Noam's father, Dr. Ron Kuzar, at [email protected], or go to www.indymedia.org.il.

COPYRIGHT 2001 The Progressive, Inc.
COPYRIGHT 2001 Gale Group

If the war is bothering you go to. http://www.petitiononline.com/mejia/ and speak up.
It’s also your responsibility to speak up and fight for what you bereave in
Don’t just talk about how bad things are start fighting back
SUPPORT THE TROOPS doesn’t mean support the war.
But don't run away.

Thanks for that link, Ralph.

I have this link about Brandon Hughey and Jeremy Hinzman. There is a third US soldier, the one who served in Afghanistan (as a cook, I think) who has come to Canada, but I don't a link handy, Antoine.

Given the Canadian government's stated position on the war in Iraq and various international conventions we have signed, we are pretty much required to give these men refuge. If the Martin government does not do so, they are being hypocritical.

Ralph- Thanks for trying to find the information about Israel. As far as speaking up, I do. I support our troops, that's why I want them out of Iraq and home with their families, children, and communities. Antoine is not my real name. I have written articles about Iraq in the papers here in town. I have marched, cheered, waved signs, and yelled in several protests, both in town and in Washington DC. As I have written in other threads, it is hard to yell so loud, take time away from home, put so much energy into it, and then feel like nobody heard anything. I haven't given up hope yet. However, if Bush gets re-elected, I might give up hope here at home. I can't think of another president with so many atrocious acts committed by himself and his party. To be reelected, I would start questioning the intellegence of America- and that is dangerious.

Rev- How much publicity in Canada is this situation getting? If Martin caves in to the demands of the gringos down south, what would be the political fallout, if any? I am not as familiar with Canadian politics as you, so with this minority government, has the Liberal Party made peace with the Bloc Quebecois or the NDP in order to maintain power, or is it an issue by issue situation. On that note, how are the NDP and BQ treating this issue, if at all?

The NDP have stated that the men should be allowed to stay. I'm not sure about the BQ, but their anti-war stance has been very clear since the beginning of the war so I assume their position is similar. The Reform/Alliance/Conservatives would send these guys back even if they were to be shot without a trial at the border.

The minority government situation is being handled on an issue by issue basis. The Martin government may be soft on this, unwilling to do anything that might anger Georgie, but many Liberals stand firmly against the war. Whether they would vote their consciences or tow the party line is an open question, but that question itself has put pressure on Martin.

So I really don't know which way this will go. Right now we're writing letters to our MPs and the PMO telling them to allow these people to stay and welcome others in similar straits.

It hasn't gotten as much attention in the press here as I think is warranted. Smaller, left-leaning outlets have covered it, of course. There have also been stories in the Globe and Mail, CBC Radio 1 and NewsWorld, and (I think) in Macleans, so it has gotten more major coverage here than in the US.

I think if Canada does the right thing here it will catapult the story into the headlines in both countries though. We've only ever granted one American refugee status and that was over-turned in a higher court.

It would be nice if Martin would make a stand and this thing would gain momentum.
But for that exact reason this whole issue will be handled through the back channels.
The Americans don’t want this thing growing and Ottawa doesn’t want to rock the boat.

Except that it's already in the press and being discussed pretty much everywhere and with a minority government the NDP will push to keep it an issue.

The seeds of discontent have to be sown in the right field.
And by the right brave people. People that are willing to stand and fight.
Canada and Canadians can lend support, but the fight is with the U.S.A
And all the battles can only be fought in country.

Yes, these guys "signed up", but it's good to have somewhere to go when you come to your senses and realize that the PNAC agenda is not worth fighting for. Canada should provide a santuary for who have decided not to fight for american imperialism just as it did during the Vietnam war. I went to Vietnam and I had "signed up" and, looking back, I wish I had gone to Canada. I'd feel better known that I had nothing to do with that war. Just as Canada offered santuary for runaway slaves, it should always be there to offer a refuge from the periodic pychosis that this country suffers.