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Cigarette Package Warning Photos: Too Offensive?

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postmaster @ Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:18 pm

Brenda wrote:
I do wonder why you care tho, if you are not the target audience anyway?

(Nice sig, btw)

... thank you. and i care because i was severely offended by the grisly image i saw on the package ...

   



Zipperfish @ Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:27 pm

postmaster wrote:
Brenda wrote:
I do wonder why you care tho, if you are not the target audience anyway?

(Nice sig, btw)

... thank you. and i care because i was severely offended by the grisly image i saw on the package ...


It's one of those things where if it's a socially sanctioned cause you're allowed to colour outside the lines. Like middle age moms wearing "Fuck Cancer" t-shirts. You know, it's OK, because cancer is evil. Or the drunk driving commercials that show teenagers getting torn apart. Same with the smoking pics. It's a socially healthy outlet for morbidness, I guess. The secular equivalent of the old "fire and brimstone" sermons.

   



postmaster @ Tue Sep 10, 2013 3:33 pm

Zipperfish wrote:
It's one of those things where if it's a socially sanctioned cause you're allowed to colour outside the lines. Like middle age moms wearing "Fuck Cancer" t-shirts. You know, it's OK, because cancer is evil. Or the drunk driving commercials that show teenagers getting torn apart. Same with the smoking pics. It's a socially healthy outlet for morbidness, I guess. The secular equivalent of the old "fire and brimstone" sermons.

... great post. and so true. you nailed it ...

   



herbie @ Tue Sep 10, 2013 7:11 pm

Take a hint from Australia. Plain brown packs, all the same like stubbies were for beer.
12 point type "Export A Red".
And put the nicotine content back on the pack! I don't fucking care if "lights" are just as fucking unhealthy as regular. The first goddam thing you wanna do to quit is reduce your nicotine intake FFS!

   



BeaverFever @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:38 am

postmaster wrote:
other warnings issued by the government don't use images that look like they were created in some hollywood horror movie special effects factory! :D


Do you not remember these ads?

   



DrCaleb @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 7:27 am

postmaster wrote:
... you've said the images on cigarette packages are insufficient for smokers to feel what it was like for you to lose your beloved mother and father. my response to that would be, why would you want to subject the general public to your personal emotional pain. it's not like smokers are a bunch of morons. the adverse health effects of smoking are well known and are common knowledge. hammering the point home isn't necessary. and neither are obscene images on cigarette packages ...


Appreciated.

My thoughts being that if you could get a little hint of what is to come, you might find another reason to quit. Being the child of two smokers, I had a pack-a-day habit before I was even in school. When I moved out of my parents house, I took up the habit myself and only managed to quit after having a small stroke myself.

The images on the packages and the warnings didn't convince me. All the literature in school didn't stop me from starting. The slow death of my parents didn't convince me to quit. It was only when the possibility of life changing (not life ending!) injury ocurred that I quit.

I know smokers aren't morons, because for decades I was one, even knowing the concequences. Now I am not a smoker. And I know a person can only quit if they have sufficient reason to quit.

postmaster wrote:
... the picture of the diseased tongue on the cigarette pack i saw lying on the road was so graphic i wouldn't even post it in this thread. i could, it is available online, but i wouldn't want to gross everyone out ...


It's obvious the literature and graphic photos aren't going to convince everyone to quit.

So, why not try something different? No one ever died from quitting smoking.

   



Zipperfish @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:32 am

DrCaleb wrote:
postmaster wrote:
... you've said the images on cigarette packages are insufficient for smokers to feel what it was like for you to lose your beloved mother and father. my response to that would be, why would you want to subject the general public to your personal emotional pain. it's not like smokers are a bunch of morons. the adverse health effects of smoking are well known and are common knowledge. hammering the point home isn't necessary. and neither are obscene images on cigarette packages ...


Appreciated.

My thoughts being that if you could get a little hint of what is to come, you might find another reason to quit. Being the child of two smokers, I had a pack-a-day habit before I was even in school. When I moved out of my parents house, I took up the habit myself and only managed to quit after having a small stroke myself.

The images on the packages and the warnings didn't convince me. All the literature in school didn't stop me from starting. The slow death of my parents didn't convince me to quit. It was only when the possibility of life changing (not life ending!) injury ocurred that I quit.

I know smokers aren't morons, because for decades I was one, even knowing the concequences. Now I am not a smoker. And I know a person can only quit if they have sufficient reason to quit.

postmaster wrote:
... the picture of the diseased tongue on the cigarette pack i saw lying on the road was so graphic i wouldn't even post it in this thread. i could, it is available online, but i wouldn't want to gross everyone out ...


It's obvious the literature and graphic photos aren't going to convince everyone to quit.

So, why not try something different? No one ever died from quitting smoking.



Part of the problem is people going on about how hard it is to quit. In fact, millions upon millions of people have quit, without any professonal help whatsoever, every year. The whole addiction thing--the entire scientific field of "addiction" is an illusion. The addiction to cigarettes lasts about three days. After that, it's habit.

   



DrCaleb @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:47 am

Zipperfish wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:
No one ever died from quitting smoking.

Part of the problem is people going on about how hard it is to quit. In fact, millions upon millions of people have quit, without any professonal help whatsoever, every year. The whole addiction thing--the entire scientific field of "addiction" is an illusion.


Not correct. Quite a few addictions are due to actual changes in brain chemistry. Going 'cold turkey'* can actually be dangerous, depending on the addiction.

That said, cigarettes are a depressant so the dependency is the addict needs them to get back to 'normal'. It's much easier to overcome.

* I got addicted to cold turkey once. It's really confusing to tell people you are quitting cold turkey 'cold turkey'. It's worse being addicted to placebos.

Zipperfish wrote:
The addiction to cigarettes lasts about three days. After that, it's habit.


Entirely true. And the habit never leaves, you just have to overcome it. Forever. And most people need a good reason to suffer for those 3 days.

   



Brenda @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:12 am

DrCaleb wrote:
Zipperfish wrote:
The addiction to cigarettes lasts about three days. After that, it's habit.


Entirely true. And the habit never leaves, you just have to overcome it. Forever. And most people need a good reason to suffer for those 3 days.

Hmmm, I don't know if that is necessarily true for everyone. The habit never leaving, that is. I quit cold turkey 15 years ago after 15 years of heavy smoking, had a habit problem for 6 weeks or something, lit one up 3 years later after a VERY stressful day, coughed my guts out and never ever ached for one again regardless of how my day went. Not a habitual ache, nor any other ache.

ANY reason that will put your brain in the right place is a good reason. People say you can only successfully quit for yourself, but that proved to be untrue for me. I didn't quit for me at all, I quit for someone else. And it worked.

   



Zipperfish @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:23 am

DrCaleb wrote:

Not correct. Quite a few addictions are due to actual changes in brain chemistry. Going 'cold turkey'* can actually be dangerous, depending on the addiction.


Do you have any facts to back this up? For cigarettes, I mean. I don't believe for a moment that quitting smoking is dangerous. I don't doubt that the body reacts negatively in physical ways. But that only lasts a few days, and there are plenty of smokers who make it through those first few days, with no ill effects. I can't recall ever having heard of someone being hospitalized for quitting smoking.

After that, you have what is called the "psychological addiction." This is a very suspect term in clinical psychology. The problem is that "psychological addiction" can be used to explain any "non-healthy" behaviour from obsessive-compulsive disorder, to gambling, to sex, to stealing, to internet, to porn, to eating, to not eating. Even the feeling of "being in love" can be described as a "psychological addiction ("addcited to Love", "Can't Get Enough of Your Love", "Love is the Drug I'm Thinking Of"). So when examined clinically, the term quickly expands to the point of meaninglessness.

The other problem with addiction is that it deals with the matter of choice. Addicts are addicts because they have no choice--they're addicted, brain chemcials are taking away thier free will. But in psychology, neuroscience adn philosophy, the concept of free will is under attack. It's been demonstrated that our "subconscious," if you will, makes decisions a long time beforeour conscious mind does, and that we interpret that realization of a direction from our subconscious as "choice."

So since we likely have no choice to start with, according to a convincing body of evidence, the framing addiction within the context of "choice" loses its meaning.


Quote:
That said, cigarettes are a depressant so the dependency is the addict needs them to get back to 'normal'. It's much easier to overcome.


I think that nicotine is a stimulant. It elevates your mood and boosts your IQ a few points to boot. That's probably why people like it.

Quote:
* I got addicted to cold turkey once. It's really confusing to tell people you are quitting cold turkey 'cold turkey'. It's worse being addicted to placebos.


That's pretty funny. But illustrative of the above point. You can get "addcited" to placebos which shows what a questionable concept addiction is to start with.

To my mind addiction comprises two and two only things: 1) you do or take something that you deem emotionally satusfying regularly and to an extent that it interferes with your normal life and 2) you feel bad about it after.

I like this guys explanation:

Psychology today: What is Addiction

Quote:
All of these new addiction sightings are based on vague understandings of how lived experience is reflected in neural and brain activity. Yes, it is—and so what? To say that intense involvements affect the brain is to say—in a word—nothing. What makes such a thing an addiction? And it is no more the existence and consumption of junk food, repetitive games or other video stimulation, or placing a bet that makes it so; it is the way the individual interprets and reacts to the experience of the thing in the context of his or her life that creates an addiction (think of heroin addiction in Vietnam, soon left behind by most vets on their return home). When a powerful experience is welcomed for its reassurance and as a life solution, when it become preoccupying and detrimental to the consumer, and—finally—when the individual him or herself comes to see and to believe that the experience is addictive—voila!

   



DrCaleb @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:51 am

Zipperfish wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:

Not correct. Quite a few addictions are due to actual changes in brain chemistry. Going 'cold turkey'* can actually be dangerous, depending on the addiction.


Do you have any facts to back this up? For cigarettes, I mean.


No. You said "The whole addiction thing--the entire scientific field of "addiction" is an illusion. " So I was not speaking of cigarettes, but things like alcohol or barbituates that can have fatal concequences if the person isn't weaned off them gradually. It's not an illusion.

Poor grammar trap? ;)


Zipperfish wrote:
I don't believe for a moment that quitting smoking is dangerous. I don't doubt that the body reacts negatively in physical ways. But that only lasts a few days, and there are plenty of smokers who make it through those first few days, with no ill effects. I can't recall ever having heard of someone being hospitalized for quitting smoking.

After that, you have what is called the "psychological addiction." This is a very suspect term in clinical psychology. The problem is that "psychological addiction" can be used to explain any "non-healthy" behaviour from obsessive-compulsive disorder, to gambling, to sex, to stealing, to internet, to porn, to eating, to not eating. Even the feeling of "being in love" can be described as a "psychological addiction ("addcited to Love", "Can't Get Enough of Your Love", "Love is the Drug I'm Thinking Of"). So when examined clinically, the term quickly expands to the point of meaninglessness.

The other problem with addiction is that it deals with the matter of choice. Addicts are addicts because they have no choice--they're addicted, brain chemcials are taking away thier free will. But in psychology, neuroscience adn philosophy, the concept of free will is under attack. It's been demonstrated that our "subconscious," if you will, makes decisions a long time beforeour conscious mind does, and that we interpret that realization of a direction from our subconscious as "choice."

So since we likely have no choice to start with, according to a convincing body of evidence, the framing addiction within the context of "choice" loses its meaning.


I'm not qualified to comment on that, but I do know almost anything can become an addiction. That's how Obsessive Compulsives are created. I've known a couple people to even be addicted to the 'non-addicting' leaf of the cannibus plant.

Zipperfish wrote:
Quote:
That said, cigarettes are a depressant so the dependency is the addict needs them to get back to 'normal'. It's much easier to overcome.


I think that nicotine is a stimulant. It elevates your mood and boosts your IQ a few points to boot. That's probably why people like it.


It's actually both; stimulant and depressant.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC1776143/

You get a 'high' from it that decreases from use, but you in turn get a lower depression about 15 minutes later. After a while, you smoke not to feel good, but to not feel bad.

Zipperfish wrote:
Quote:
* I got addicted to cold turkey once. It's really confusing to tell people you are quitting cold turkey 'cold turkey'. It's worse being addicted to placebos.


That's pretty funny. But illustrative of the above point. You can get "addcited" to placebos which shows what a questionable concept addiction is to start with.

To my mind addiction comprises two and two only things: 1) you do or take something that you deem emotionally satusfying regularly and to an extent that it interferes with your normal life and 2) you feel bad about it after.

I like this guys explanation:

Psychology today: What is Addiction

Quote:
All of these new addiction sightings are based on vague understandings of how lived experience is reflected in neural and brain activity. Yes, it is—and so what? To say that intense involvements affect the brain is to say—in a word—nothing. What makes such a thing an addiction? And it is no more the existence and consumption of junk food, repetitive games or other video stimulation, or placing a bet that makes it so; it is the way the individual interprets and reacts to the experience of the thing in the context of his or her life that creates an addiction (think of heroin addiction in Vietnam, soon left behind by most vets on their return home). When a powerful experience is welcomed for its reassurance and as a life solution, when it become preoccupying and detrimental to the consumer, and—finally—when the individual him or herself comes to see and to believe that the experience is addictive—voila!


As above though, some things can be a physical addition, where others are simply a mental one.

   



Zipperfish @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:16 am

DrCaleb wrote:
No. You said "The whole addiction thing--the entire scientific field of "addiction" is an illusion. " So I was not speaking of cigarettes, but things like alcohol or barbituates that can have fatal concequences if the person isn't weaned off them gradually. It's not an illusion.

Poor grammar trap? ;)


Poor reading trap on my part. Yeah, that would be your chemcial tolerance. Even that is over-rated, I think. Thousands of heroin users alcoholics withdraw without any professional help. A lot of alcoholics don't quit--they just learn to control their intake. And the consensus on babies addicted to heroin seems to be non-pharmacological treatemnt.


Zipperfish wrote:

You get a 'high' from it that decreases from use, but you in turn get a lower depression about 15 minutes later. After a while, you smoke not to feel good, but to not feel bad.


Well that makes sense intuitively. But then you could make the same argument for, say, eating or video games, where there is no drug-induced stimululant/depressant effect.


Quote:
As above though, some things can be a physical addition, where others are simply a mental one.


No I don't think there is such a thing as a mental addiction. It's an illusion.

I think if we dealt with smoking as a bad habit, rather than convincing people it's harder to quit than heroin, we'd be better off. Making allowance--as you say--for the fact that there is a chemical tolerance component to the issue. And focus on the fact that cutting down is effective too. By telling people they have to quit, we reinforce failure, I think.

Just my opinion.

   



DrCaleb @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 10:45 am

Brenda wrote:
ANY reason that will put your brain in the right place is a good reason. People say you can only successfully quit for yourself, but that proved to be untrue for me. I didn't quit for me at all, I quit for someone else. And it worked.


Ahh! But you did quit for yourself! That's one thing I found that finally made me quit: You had to find the right reason and then it is easy. Your reason was for someone elses' betterment, not your own.


Zipperfish wrote:

[s]Zipperfish[/s]DrCaleb wrote:

You get a 'high' from it that decreases from use, but you in turn get a lower depression about 15 minutes later. After a while, you smoke not to feel good, but to not feel bad.


Well that makes sense intuitively. But then you could make the same argument for, say, eating or video games, where there is no drug-induced stimululant/depressant effect.


Those are called 'endorphines' and are produced by the brain naturally. Things like Heroin mimic the brain's production, which is why they are addictive and physically dangerous to quit cold turkey. Heroin, not video games. ;)

Zipperfish wrote:
Quote:
As above though, some things can be a physical addition, where others are simply a mental one.


No I don't think there is such a thing as a mental addiction. It's an illusion.


I don't feel qualified to on this eithier, but speaking to a phychiatrist in a substance addiction program, I learnt that 'weed' is mentally addictive. The person I knew addicted to it used to escape their life (which the did not feel in control of) for a short time. After a while, the weed became their life. Taking control of their life got them off the weed.

I would say that was indeed mental addiction. Their need was not a physical one, but it was life altering.

Zipperfish wrote:
I think if we dealt with smoking as a bad habit, rather than convincing people it's harder to quit than heroin, we'd be better off. Making allowance--as you say--for the fact that there is a chemical tolerance component to the issue. And focus on the fact that cutting down is effective too. By telling people they have to quit, we reinforce failure, I think.

Just my opinion.


The addiction is more difficult to quit I think because it is socially tolerated to a degree. We don't have sections of the property at work dedicated for people to go shoot heroin, but we do for cigarettes. And there are dedicated coffee rooms, where caffine is provided for free to any addict that wants some.

Smoking is a bad habit, but it's also an addiction. It's a physical need for something that is not good for you. I think that we tell people they need to quit, but don't tell them how and that sets them up for failure. Just my opinion. ;)

   



Zipperfish @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:05 am

DrCaleb wrote:

Smoking is a bad habit, but it's also an addiction. It's a physical need for something that is not good for you. I think that we tell people they need to quit, but don't tell them how and that sets them up for failure. Just my opinion. ;)


Well, we both agree on the same ends, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the psychology adn physiology of addiction. [B-o]

   



DrCaleb @ Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:08 am

Zipperfish wrote:
DrCaleb wrote:

Smoking is a bad habit, but it's also an addiction. It's a physical need for something that is not good for you. I think that we tell people they need to quit, but don't tell them how and that sets them up for failure. Just my opinion. ;)


Well, we both agree on the same ends, but we'll have to agree to disagree on the psychology adn physiology of addiction. [B-o]


[BB]

And not once did anyone get called names. :rock:

   



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