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So all the rich and healthy people can opt out while they're rich and healthy and the public system which is allowed to refuse nobody gets saddled with all the poor and sick. That's a fucking GREAT plan.

   

No, that's the free market and yes, it is a great plan. One, that I might add, Health Canada takes advantage of.

Start with that over 90% of the drugs you take for granted in Canada were developed in the USA by for-profit pharmaceutical companies.

There are certain specialised treatments and diagnostic technologies that the free market has developed in the US that Health Canada simply cannot afford to purchase so it is not uncommon for Canadians to be sent down here to US hospitals to benefit from the skills and technologies the free market is able to provide.

A good for-instance was a Liberal MP Belinda Stronach who came to California for a specialised treatment of her breast cancer that was not available anywhere in Canada.

In digging up the correct citation for Stronach I came across this site:

http://www.neoperspectives.com/canadahealthcare.htm

And there's a couple of doozies on there.



Probably the most stirring comment.

   

First Name: Felix
Age: 19
From the US: (yes/no) Hells no
Providence: I believe you mean "Province", and it's Ontario

Questions

1a. How long do you have to wait to see your family doctor? If I call and make an appointment, 10-15 minutes max.
1b. How long do you have to wait to get into the Emergency room? Never had to, but know family who have. Took them 25 minutes roughly.

2. How long do you have to wait for test results? A couple weeks to over a month.

3. Do some people die/get worse waiting for the health care they are in need of? Not usually. But there are priority lists...

4. Does your health care system work? From what I've seen of and used of it, yes it does work.

5. Would you recommend the US adopting this Health Care system? No. It would require so much shaking up of the existing system that it would defeat the purpose.

6. What are some of the known issues with your Health Care system? Wait times and treatments available.

7. Do you mind that your taxes pay for everyones Health Care even if they do not pay taxes? Hells. Fucking. Yes. That is why really unhealthy people should not get priority and pay more over people who need a new liver, lung, kidney, etc.

8. Anything else you would like to say about the subject? Yes. Be sure to keep in mind that healthcare varies greatly from province to province, so it will be extremely difficult to get a truly comprehensive and accurate representation of healthcare in Canada.

   

That chart doesn't take into account that in the US the % is far higher because a sizable chunk of those people who aren't dying waiting for treatment aren't even on there because they aren't even waiting for treatment. They can't afford it. They are dying from not even being able to afford treatment even if they can get it.

Thats the big difference.

There are so many in the US who cannot afford healthcare and they are simply not even included in stats like your chart because they aren't even in the system.

Personally Canadians who seek treatment in the US are a good thing. That means more free space for others in our system without the loss of revenue.

   

Here is another stirring stat.

Infant Mortality & Life Expectancy.

Canada: 4.6 per 1000 live births. 80.3 years life expectancy.

USA: 6.4 per 1000 live births. 78.7 years life expectancy.

These stats include everybody and the higher infant mortality and lower life expectancy can be attributed to all those who lack access to healthcare.

http://www.infoplease.com/ipa/A0004393.html

In other words you may die waiting for treatment in Canada but at least you will live to see your first birthday.

   

I said that in a previous post on this thread. Good observation, though.

   

Thanks. Its also a good thing having loads of Americans come up here to get vaccinated. More Americans get protection and Canada gets an infusion of cash since they pay cash.

Win - Win.

   

Thanks. Its also a good thing having loads of Americans come up here to get vaccinated. More Americans get protection and Canada gets an infusion of cash since they pay cash.

Win - Win.

   

I live in Brantford Ontario.
The average wait in the emergency room is 8 hours unless you are complaining of chest pains than thye will hook you up while you lie in the hall
My 15 month old daughter was not holding down fluids so we waited in the emergency for 4 hours when a friend called me and sent Me to Hamilton and was seen immediatly.
Canada has a 2 tier system even which is denied by the goverment.The rich go to the U.S. while the rest live in bread lines i mean Goverment Health care

   

Are you seriously suggesting that healthcare decisions are currently being made by doctors and patients? That is the biggest LOAD of horsecrap I've seen in a long time!

Yes, decisions start out being made by qualified doctors, but then these decisions are routinely interfered with by insurance company bureaucrats with a constant eye on the bottom line, so that their corporations can continue to rack up record profits and leave a path of wrongful deaths and unnecessary suffering in their wake.

Case in point: Dr. Linda Peeno, who formerly worked for such corporations, could no longer stand to use her training in healing and helping people as a tool to deny healthcare in the pursuit of profit. So she blew the whistle and testified in Congress to the atrocities she witnessed. Atrocities confirmed by an ample supply of other sources.

I have personally experienced the following on occasions too numerous to mention, either pertaining to my own health or someone close to me, due to this constant meddling with doctors' orders:

* Having to switch back to a less effective medication because the insurance company denied coverage for the one the physician actually ordered
* Doing without necessary treatment or equipment, or paying for it out of pocket, because the insurance company found some loophole to refuse to cover it despite multiple physicians telling them it needed to be done - a far cry from the lofty promises made when you were purchasing the policy
* Rushing to the emergency room with a life-threatening emergency or excruciating pain of unknown cause (or both), and for some reason not stopping everything right there to refuse treatment, in order to ascertain whether or not the attending physician was on the insurance plan first. (Hmm I dunno, perhaps extreme pain and thoughts of one's own mortality might take precedence at a time like this?) Anyway, an unbelievably jacka$$ technicality like this invariably results in the patient receiving a bill for thousands of dollars when the insurance company refuses coverage.

Add to this these facts:

* 47 million Americans are now living without health insurance (2006 Census data). Before moving back to Canada, I'd gone without health insurance for 6 years despite being employed at various skilled IT and electrical jobs. My partner went without for almost this long. During this time we lived in constant in fear that an illness or injury would clean out our life savings. This is up 5% from 2005, a growing problem that shows no sign of stopping.
* Many more Americans are underinsured. Unable to afford proper coverage, and having had their medical benefits steadily chipped away at by insurance companies and employers, these add to the numbers of people who have to just hope they don't get too sick. Case in point: What is the biggest issue we keep hearing about when various high profile work strikes hit the headlines? Cuts to health insurance benefits.
* U.S. insurance companies will generally not pay for treatment of any condition you had prior to signing on with them (i.e. diabetes), even if you didn't know you had it when you signed up. They also find dozens of excuses to deny payment, and will simply cancel your policy if you get too sick (i.e. cancer). There are plenty of high profile news reports and successful lawsuits that bear these out.
* There have been lots of successful wrongful death lawsuits too, based on the fact that insurance companies denied coverage for tests that would have meant early diagnosis and lifesaving treatment had the problem been caught in time. (See other links I've provided.)
* President Bush and cronies have exacerbated this dire situation by working to absolve Health "Maintenance" Organizations (HMO's) from responsibility for deaths or illnesses resulting from a denial of care.
* There are no price controls on medications there so pharmaceutical companies charge whatever they want, and poor people or especially seniors often have to choose between groceries or their medicine. At one time in my life, I was one of those people. There have also been plenty of studies and investigations showing this to be the case.



Ah yes, here is how wonderful Kaiser Permanente is:

* The city of Los Angeles recently filed charges against Kaiser Permanente and won, after the release of videotapes documenting how they dumped a half-delirious homeless woman still in need of medical attention for her head injuries, onto the streets of Skid Row wearing only a hospital gown, socks and a diaper. Btw lest you think this is an isolated incident, 10 other area hospitals were charged with the same offence. There is no profit in helping the uninsured, it seems. But hey Bart, you've got yours so piss on everybody else, right?
* I have personally fought with them on many occasions to get proper care and treatment for my mother. Some of their regulations and expectations are truly ludicrous, and their disorganization is absolutely appalling.



Yeah, nice, Bart... typical "me first, screw everyone else" mentality that turns people off to some Republicans. You would do well to remember the "there, but for the grace of God, go I" mentality. Most people here replied that they don't mind paying into a system that pays for medical care for the poor because they believe proper medical care is a basic human right. In case you didn't notice, your "let them eat cake" attitude doesn't fit in here. Frankly I hope you and your attitude will stay in the U.S. - - the polar opposite of Tommy Douglas and Terry Fox... Canada will be better off without you.

   

I've always felt that you get more potholes fixed if I can get the Mayor to ride in the back of my pick up truck each morning.

There aren't many bank managers, politicians, newspaper editors, doctors, judges standing in the same crapping line ups that I'm standing in..........

...

............But I'm sure gonna miss them when they are all gone.

   

the health system in Canada isnt perfect but it is a hell of alot better than the US system..you can debate it until the cows come home.. for people with long term illness and disease you dont see them being written off by the insurance company.. losing their homes etc.. you do in the states.. long waits in the ER? well of course people are triaged and those in life threatening situations get priority .. why not? if you have a cold and are in the ER,, well enjoy the wait. same if you are constipated.. I mean come on.. when I worked in ER there were regulars who came to get treatment for those very things.. get free drugs and supplies... ER should be just that emergency only and traumas.... if you waited until your child was dehydrated well that your fault.. the system is not perfect but its very very good.... we as Canadians expect too much... when is the last time you had to buy a bed pan? well they do in some hospitals in the states...and yes before you go there I have relatives working in the states (RNs) and they say... Canada has the best health care going....

   

Propaganda fed to you by your government so your public doesnt open their eyes and see the truth of the fact. Just like I heard that BC really only has 2 CT machines...what a joke

My thought on it...if you are happy with your healthcare stay where you are, dont come to Canada and that includes buying property here and retiring here and then sucking off our 'horrible health care' when you are elderly.

   

Name them...

***Edit why is this in a new thread?**

   

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