NDP Kyoto Plan
Rev_Blair @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:18 am
The NDP have come up with a Kyoto Plan that they want the Liberals to adopt. Here's the link to it.
Dan74 @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 6:38 am
Tell it to India and China.
Canada is around 2% of the worlds emissions.Kyoto will bring it down to
1.4%
People said the gun registry would only cost 2 million.
Never trust a theory
Rev_Blair @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:35 am
Dan, global warming is real. The Arctic is melting, mountain glaciers are melting. Look it up. Never mind that though, it sounds like you've closed your mind to the idea, so let's look at the benefits instead.
Energy efficiency saves you money. A properly insulated house is more comfortable. New technology has always created jobs and wealth throughout history. Greenhouse gases are not the only pollutants around and the spin-off of this plan would be cleaner air and water.
Unless you have too much money, think that being uncomfortable builds character, are afraid of progress that produces jobs, and like having diry air and water, then you'd be foolish to want change. Most of us aren't foolish though.
Rev_Blair @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 8:28 am
I almost missed your post, Avro.
Read the plan though because when you say,
$1:
Even though China has signed on to Kyoto I highly doubt it will go any further than that,
it becomes apparent that you missed the part that recommends making our clean technologies available to other countries. If you had read the plan you would have seen this:
$1:
Help other countries develop sustainably by providing Canadian green energy technology to developing countries, as part of Kyoto’s clean development mechanism. This provides Canadian businesses with new export opportunities, helps spread the use of non-polluting technology and provides Canada emissions credits.
China and India, as well as other developing nations, do not have an infrastructure as far gone as ours. It costs them no more, will actually save them money, to adopt clean technologies.
$1:
Besides; like I have said before, in our lifetime we will have used up the worlds oil reserves and the problem will take care of itself.
Oil is much more than just a fuel though Avro. Everything from the computer you used to enter your last post to your wife's pantyhose are made from oil. We cannot afford to squander it by simply burning it, it's far too valuable in making things.
AdamNF @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 1:31 pm
I think if China was to aggressively back Kyoto and go into the long at hard process of making it all happen they could easily change there image throughout the world, especially in Europe. Chinas industry has a long way to go to reach even western standards but I think they should try. China and India will be the major world powers one day and its stuf like this that can help them out.
Dan74 @ Fri Jan 14, 2005 7:19 pm
Rev_Blair Rev_Blair:
Dan, global warming is real. The Arctic is melting, mountain glaciers are melting. Look it up. Never mind that though, it sounds like you've closed your mind to the idea, so let's look at the benefits instead.
Energy efficiency saves you money. A properly insulated house is more comfortable. New technology has always created jobs and wealth throughout history. Greenhouse gases are not the only pollutants around and the spin-off of this plan would be cleaner air and water.
Unless you have too much money, think that being uncomfortable builds character, are afraid of progress that produces jobs, and like having diry air and water, then you'd be foolish to want change. Most of us aren't foolish though.
Energy efficiency saves you money. A properly insulated house is more comfortable. New technology has always created jobs and wealth throughout history. Greenhouse gases are not the only pollutants around and the spin-off of this plan would be cleaner air and water.
Unless you have too much money, think that being uncomfortable builds character, are afraid of progress that produces jobs, and like having diry air and water, then you'd be foolish to want change. Most of us aren't foolish though.
I am for Kyoto but my issue with it is that the countries that sign on for iit are not the countries that are doing the most damage.
Of course I want cleaner air and a stop greenhouse gases.I drive a lil Accent to save money on fuel and for enviormental reasons.That and I hate the bus.
I just don't have alot of faith in China to change its ways or India,they are too busy doing nuclear experiments.THese 2 countries and yes the States are the ones that have to make a major change.
Rev_Blair @ Sat Jan 15, 2005 7:41 am
That's why part of this plan is to supply countries like that with technology, Dan.
Kyoto is based on getting the worst offenders to smarten up. At the time it was drawn up China and India weren't even on the map when it came to greenhouse gases. Things have changed since then. The fact is that we got rich spewing crap into the air though, so it's our mess we are cleaning up. We can try to help China and India from following the same path that we did, but we can't force them.
The US is an entirely other matter. They are the world's biggest polluter and the Bush administration has basically said that they don't care. The only way to get them onside at this point is to go ahead and develop the technologies. The US will be left behind then and will realise that to be competitve they have to catch up to the rest of the world.
At the last environmental talks the US did their best to destroy Kyoto even though they aren't part of it. They know fucking well that they will be left behind technologically.
Dan74 @ Sat Jan 15, 2005 9:31 am
China will do what it wants aslong as its in the best intrest of China.They even signed a human rights agreement.Shows you how much stock they put into pacts.
Rev you are too intelligent tobe this niave.Can you honestly believe that one side of the argument be so wrong and the other so right.My guess is that the cost will be right in the middle and odds are that American private companies will also devolop the technology you are talking about just too sell it to the countries that are part of the occord.U.S and Mexico will sweep up the jobs that will head south and we will suffer all to stop .6% of the worlds emissions
Rev_Blair @ Sat Jan 15, 2005 10:25 am
Every technological shift in history has created jobs, Dan. Why would this one be any different? It wouldn't. That's not being naive, that's looking at concrete examples from history.
Ned Ludd was wrong when he freaked out about automated looms. Those looms led to more jobs and wealth, not less.
When the automobile was coming in there were predictions that everybody who was a carriage maker would be permanently unemployed, but the auto industry created more jobs and wealth than the carriage makers could fill.
Nobody thought we'd be typing on computers when they first arrived on the scene but we do. The typewriter technicians moved into computers and computers have created far more jobs than typewriters ever did.
Examples like this go back to the invention of the wheel. New technology creates jobs, it does not destroy them.
If the US wants to stick with old, dirty, slow technology for their industry and transport, that's up to them. They risk becoming a technological backwater by doing so, so it is doubtful they would do so as the rest of the world moved on. There will be no moving forward in the US when the science-hating George Bush is in power though. Even the minimal plans he has for alternative energy are dependent on fossil fuels at their base.
China will do what's best for China. Not being dependent on foreign oil is good for China. The problem is that nobody is offering them an alternative right now.
Canada has a real chance to be a world leader in these technologies. We have the resources, we have the people. Unforunately we also have a lot of people, including a Prime Minister, who are afraid to do anything unless somebody else has done it first.
Dan74 @ Sat Jan 15, 2005 11:59 am
I guess my major problem is letting a goverment agency run this.
Looking past my dislike for Jack Layton's politcs.We as Canadians have a hard time finding one goverment agency that works as it is spose too.
Rev_Blair @ Sat Jan 15, 2005 12:10 pm
Government has to run it, who else is there? Private industry is interested only in short-term profits.
Dan74 @ Sun Jan 16, 2005 12:41 am
I am having a hard time thinking of a goverment agency that has been run without a complete mess.Healthcare has been gutted,military slashed,immigration loves to let the wrong people stay and kick out the good,firearms well nuff said,csis is a joke,etc,etc.
Perhaps if a group from the green party and people with a knowledge of buisness and science that were not part of the Ottawa circle.Maybe have this group out west and as far away as possiable from the politic's
Rev_Blair @ Sun Jan 16, 2005 2:48 am
That's very dogmatic of you, Dan.
According to that school of thought, Canada must be a failed state. The problem with that school of thought is that it isn't true. I'm not saying that every government department is perfect or that there are no problems, just that they do as well as most major corporations.
Dan74 @ Sun Jan 16, 2005 7:38 am
Rev_Blair Rev_Blair:
That's very dogmatic of you, Dan.
According to that school of thought, Canada must be a failed state. The problem with that school of thought is that it isn't true. I'm not saying that every government department is perfect or that there are no problems, just that they do as well as most major corporations.
According to that school of thought, Canada must be a failed state. The problem with that school of thought is that it isn't true. I'm not saying that every government department is perfect or that there are no problems, just that they do as well as most major corporations.
I cannot believe you just said that.
The billions that have been wasted by every forms of goverment that we will never have answers too.If a private corperation ran like that people would be in jail.The goverment has a monopoly and can change the rules when ever they screw things up.The people keep the country together not the goverment.I have faith in the Canadian people not the Candian goverment because they have never given me reason too.